Madeline Kara Neumann, 11 years old, died a horrifying death recently. She died from ignorance.
No, not her own ignorance. She was an innocent victim of her righteous parents’ unknowing error. They were led to believe that there exists an invisible deity – somewhere in the sky – who has absolute power to subvert the laws of nature that govern our real world, and they chose to believe that strange notion because everyone they knew and trusted had similarly opted to accept this mythology that has created and supported a vast network of priests and organizations that depend upon the public’s naivety and ignorance. It’s called religion.
The parents’ blind belief was that by pleading for a miracle from this demonstrably capricious, jealous, arrogant, vengeful, deity, they could reject medical assistance that is very capable of successfully treating the ailment from which Madeline suffered. This sort of perverse notion persists among the religious in spite of the plain historical fact that millions of humans were tortured and killed by the Nazis in World War II, by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, by the Holy Roman Inquisition, and by literally hundreds of other mass atrocities. Those people died despite the earnest, desperate, prayers of the victims – and of those who loved them – directed at this deity in whom they invested their faith.
The power of prayer is clearly described in the Holy Bible. There’s no doubt about that. In Proverbs 10:24, it is simply stated: “…the desire of the righteous will be granted.” Oh, but it goes on and on:
Matthew 7:7 – Ask, and it shall be given you.
Matthew 21:22 – And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
James 5:15 – The prayer of faith will heal the sick.
John 14:14 (quoting Christ) – If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 15:7 (quoting Christ) – If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 16:23 (quoting Christ) – Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
1st John 3:22 – And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him…
This is just a brief selection from Holy Writ. But it’s wrong. It’s all mythology.
The media have grabbed their scythes and torches, and assembled against Dale and Leilani Neumann, Madeline’s parents, whose actions they have described as “unforgivable,” “willful negligence,” “child sacrifice,” and “parental negligence.” Nonsense. Madeline’s long-drawn-out death – involving nausea, vomiting, unbearable thirst, weight loss, and weakness – due to diabetic ketoacidosis – was something that the majority of the rest of our species had been drumming into the Neumanns as an example of what prayer could and would solve, just by applying it. They believed that claim, firmly and absolutely. So who’s really to blame? The Bible-thumpers who convinced the Neumanns of this claptrap, that’s who. They’re the people who are allowed to ignore tax laws, to operate freely any time or any place they want to, to screech their delusions in public and to manipulate their own children like helpless puppets in this monstrous Morality Play that our species so adores. Other parents do not own their children, as these zealots do – and should be prohibited from doing.
What's even more alarming in this calamity is exemplified by one of the ambivalent media headlines: "Ethicists say case unclear." Bio-ethicist Dr. Norman Fost of the University of Wisconsin Medical School is quoted as saying that we should not to be moralistic or pass judgment on parents who think they can heal a child through prayer, an opinion that I share. BBSNews [see tinyurl.com/33j6c6] expressed my own stance very clearly:
The fault lies in society's laudatory attitude toward a "holy book" which teaches superstition and faith-healing, whose passages are latched onto by Bible literalists, and whose obedience to such injunctions has been given a pass in the criminal statutes of many states. The mother, Leilani Neumann, of Weston, Wisconsin, publicly announced: "We need healing. We are going through the healing process." What about the healing process her daughter required? This helpless dependent of a middle-class family had last seen a doctor at the age of three, and recently had been pulled out of public schools for religious home-schooling, possibly to cover up symptoms of her illness, which, according to medical experts, would have surfaced at least six months ago…
As a memorial to the painful, frightening and needless death of Madeline Kara Neumann, the Wisconsin Legislature needs to finally show some gumption, and remove from the statutes its callous exemption sanctifying child homicide in the name of faith.
However, that last paragraph, I must admit, makes me uncomfortable. No law is ever going to affect the decisions of religious zealots who fear damnation for not accepting and believing every word found in a badly-translated set of writings that originated in the ignorance of two thousand years ago. They will continue to treat their kids like chattels and pets, subjecting them to poisonous ideas and substances, and denying them proven life-saving measures. I am philosophically adverse to seeking a cure for ignorance through legislation rather than by education…
We can easily say that Dale and Leilani Neumann were simply stupid. Perhaps so, but more importantly, they – and we – have been swindled by the priests, and society continues not only to tolerate them, but to support them by granting them exemptions from the regulations and ignoring their folly and arrogance.
I received about 60 notifications from readers about the media coverage of this dreadful tragedy…
A LIFETIME OF SUPERSTITION
From reader Christopher Gagnon:
I have recently discovered that, along with the Lifetime Network's ridiculous programs such as "Lisa Willams: Life Among the Dead" and "America's Psychic Challenge," there is a large portion of their website dedicated to astrology, numerology, runes, tea leaves, and feng shui. There is no disclaimer that this is for entertainment purposes only. They seem to fully believe in and endorse it as a legitimate practice. I have emailed them numerous times to get them to pull their endorsement of these silly notions, with no response. Their astrologer, Christopher Renstrom, gives out advice on things such as health problems by explaining that their conditions will get better when their planet starts acting right again. This seems like a dangerous practice considering that the people seeking his advice might actually need to see a real professional. What's a skeptic to do?
First, Christopher, the Lifetime Network hardly “fully believe in and endorse” the nonsense they sell; they promote it because it brings in viewers and their money. Second, astrologer Renstrom doesn’t care any more than the Lifetime Network does, whether or not viewers suffer from accepting spurious advice based on observations of the relative positions of the planets and stars – observations that Renstrom simply takes from an ephemeris that real scientists have provided for his use. The only motive of the Network and of their pet astrologer is whether naive viewers will part with money due to their poor understanding of reality...
MEDIUM NOT AT ALL WELL DONE
Reader Fred Sciarratta tells us about his encounter with “medium” Jane Doherty, who has as bizarre a claim as I’ve ever heard:
About two years ago, a few of my family members decided to visit a haunted house, where Jane was going to “show her stuff.” Supposedly, there were more ghosts there than you could shake a stick at. Being a skeptic, I went there with an open mind, looking for actual proof.
As luck would have it, I was asked to go up to Jane and place my hands on her stomach. She told me to push hard against it. She then walked towards me, and as I walked back, her stomach was supposed to get bigger & harder. In case you don’t know, this is her “power.” Her stomach senses where spirits are and protrudes farther out, the closer she gets to it. Well, as we walked, I didn’t notice any change at all. When she asked if I felt her stomach get bigger, I honestly answered, “No.” She persisted, asking:
Are you sure? Right here, it gets bigger. See?
Just to move on, I said, “Oh yeah! Now I feel it!” And everyone gasped. Apparently, the ability to jut your belly out makes people believers.
Well, I decided to see how far the power of suggestion went. After Jane left this room, and half of the people followed, I exclaimed, “Ooh! There’s a cold spot right here!”, at which I waved my hand through empty space. Correction, room-temperature-air-filled space. About ten people gathered around and waved their hands through the air, too. Not surprisingly, they all said that the air felt cold, almost freezing, to some. After meeting up with Jane in the next room, some people told Jane of their experience. Her reply:
Of course. There are many spirits within this house. You have found one.
Needless to say, I am still not a believer.
I believe you Fred, but please, in the future don’t go along with such flummeries just to “move on.” You become part of the scam…
WE SURE GET LETTERS
I don’t think we have to explain further why the JREF million-dollar prize offer will be history as of March 6th, 2010, but I’ll provide you here with an example of the seriously delusional persons who represent those who we’ve had to deal with over the past ten years. The letter that follows – sent to me by post – began with references to a URL that the writer stated he’d promised to send me. Though I recall having had several e-mail exchanges with the man, I don’t have any recollection of such a promise. This man has an Imaginary Friend named Michael, it seems. He continued his letter, shown to you here in exactly the format, spelling, and spacing, as the original:
Under INDEX, CLICK ON RECENT DISCOVERIES AND GRAZE over the
many things I have discovered since I had a stroke over 3 years ago and lost my high sensitive standing balance and "don't get around much any more" physically. But i have met several high-level friends in the Astral plane. By the way, I have not found any disease the Healing Mantra given to me by AA Michael, won't cure, it even cures "incureable" ones.
I understand that Archangel Michael visited you and delivered the Pigasus gold statue I took from your safe. I hope you follow up on our pre-incarnational agreement to
confirm the reality of “Paranormal" events in our physical reality before you pass on permanently. I did my part of the agreement by giving you the gold pigasus an hiding some birds in a sealed box that really upset you when you discovered them. Also hiding a box turtle in your desk, etc.
I found that you have 6 dark astral associates that keep intuitive people from
performing their gifts properly in your presence. All such creatures are supposed to be gone as Mother Earth raises the earth to 5th dimension. So if they show up missing you will know where they have gone (they can't stand the higher vibration and heat). If you
forgive all those you have associated with in your lifetime for any harm they did to you and they forgive you for all that you did harmful to them, you both can raise to a higher spiritual level on your way back to Unity with All That IS.
I gave you the gift of Unconditional Love.
Make no mistake, this man really believes his delusions. To him, they constitute his entire world. I wrote him – via post – and suggested strongly that he seek professional help; this is an action we’ve had to carry out many times over the years, a suggestion that I’m rather sure has never been acted upon, but it’s the ethical thing to do. I wish there were a better way…
And in the same hour as the above letter arrived by post, this one came by e-mail. It was sent by “Bob,” surely a distinctive moniker if ever there was one! He uses “Quirinus Quirrell” as an Internet signature, so maybe he’s just an acned juvenile in an attic with a keyboard... Again, spelling, punctuation, and language intact:
For your humble information, Skeptic, Uri Geller is better than your gang of cynics could EVER HOPE TO BE! Uri Geller can really bend spoonsm DEAL WITH IT! I hate the way you go romping around, saying "Ooh, I hate magic! Leonardo da Vinci didn't really paint the Mona Lisa! That's not real! That's not real!" Well, some people wish magic was real. You think that those people are mentally unstable. I believe that is very wrong. Magic way better than your stupid physics and formulas! "Blah equals blah over blah squared!" How stupid is that? I'm not ashamed to say that I PRACTICE PALM READING AND HOMEOPATTHY AND I BELIEVE IN ALIENS! GO AHEAD, TAUNT ME AND LAUGH ALL YOU WANT! I AM NOT MENTALLY UNSTABLE, JUST BECAUSE I HAVE PREDICTED THE FUTURE! I LIKE MAGIC AND ALCHEMY BETTER THAN YOUR PHYSICS AND FORMULAS! I WISH I COULD JUST JINX YOU AND YOUR GANG OF CYNICAL KNOW-IT-ALLS! I HOPE YOU GET HEXED AND THEN ABDUCTED BY ALIENS! I HATE SKEPTICS!!!
Signed,
Bob.
P.S.: URI GElLER RULES!
Bob, it’s “Geller,” not “Geiler”! At least spell your hero’s name correctly! Otherwise, some may think you’re just an acned juvenile in an attic with a keyboard! Oh, I already said that...
ORGANIZED QUACKS
“CAM” in the following refers to “Complimentary & Alternative Medicine.” Reader Terry Polevoy alerts us, and asks:
The following is the usual INCAM Research newsletter. How the hell can the government of Canada support such rubbish?
I found that the “IN-CAM News FLASH” is a “service” of the Canadian Interdisciplinary Network for Complementary and Alternative Medicine Research. It provides “timely information on IN-CAM news, resources, and activities.” Here’s a shortened version of what has reader Polevoy so incensed:
IN-CAM News FLASH (2008/03/28)
Funding Opportunity – Homeopathic Research Network of Canada. The Homeopathic Research Network of Canada (HomeoNet) is requesting proposals for a funding competition in homeopathic medicine. For more information, guidelines and application package, please visit…
Conference Announcement – The Syndicat Professionnel des Homopathes du Quebec is hosting a conference entitled, "Homeopathy's Contribution in Epidemics: A Scientific Symposium"…
CAM Summer School – The International Society for Complementary Medicine Research… [has] organized a summer school course on Research Methods in CAM. The course is open to a small number of international participants and will take place in Potsdam, Germany…
Conference Announcement – The 16th Annual Symposium on Botanical Medicine, entitled "Medicines from the Earth," will be held… at Blue Ridge Assembly in Black Mountain, North Carolina.
Conference Announcement – The 5th International Congress on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Research will be held… in Troms, Norway.
Terry Polevoy is as astonished as I am about the fact that homeopathy is still able – despite abundant evidence of its obviously spurious nature – to attract enough attention from the world of quackery to afford such conferences and attention. The public of Canada is being asked to fund pseudoscience labeled “homeopathy,” a silly notion that has done nothing to benefit victims of epidemics, but has filled the pockets of the quacks. Whether held in Germany or in Australia, any “Research Methods” school course in quackery is still a course in quackery. And yes, effective medicines have been found in the earth of our planet – terramicine, for example – but I’ve a strong feeling that any CAM handling of this subject will be abundantly woo-woo in nature.
We’re losing our fight for honesty and good science in medicine…
IOWA COUNTY – A NEW LEVEL OF IDIOCY
A building built in 1855 called Chatham Oaks, which houses people with physical and mental disabilities, will shortly be visited by a four-person “Carroll Area Paranormal Team,” all adults and thought to be sane. Johnson County officials have given their informal approval for these “ghost hunters” to check out what was once an insane asylum to see if any spirits are hanging about. This brilliant decision was made by apparently otherwise sober officials of the Johnson County Board of Supervisors, who took the initial action on a request from the Johnson County Historical Society, which gives tours of the 153-year-old building and seems to think that the citizens of the area will now be better protected from any beasties and banshees that might be in the area. Can’t be too careful, you know, even if you look like damn fools and have folks tittering as you pass by them in the street.
Mr. Brandon Cochran, Museum Operations Assistant for the Johnson County Historical Society, says that there have never been reports of ghosts or bizarre happenings at the building, and that bringing in a paranormal team is “kind of taking the pre-emptive approach.” Wise man, though maybe a trifle “teched,” as they say. You know, Brandon and his fellow employees can probably add and read, yet they believe in ghosts and demons! Probably taught school or had responsible jobs, at one time…
Brandon wants the Iowa-based paranormal investigative team to come in for one night of “scientific” investigation, but he sure hopes they don't find any paranormal activity goin’ on! The Team, we’re assured, will use the usual useless means of finding spirits – thermal imaging equipment and voice recording systems tuned up so high in an environment jammed with signals from cell phones, intercoms, various media transmitters, and private/commercial communications, that anything within miles will sent the instruments off the scale – and signify nothing. But, count on it, there will be reports of faint words and strange sounds that the Team will shudder and gasp over, like teeny-boppers at an Alice Cooper show…
The Chatham Oaks officials said there wouldn't be a problem with the paranormal team coming in “as long as it didn't disturb residents,” said county facilities director Dave Kempf. Get real, folks! A bunch of gawking dumbos looking for ghosties are not exactly conducive to sanity and good mental health among patients. But actual adult human beings will solemnly sign papers approving the decision, the farce will take place, and common sense and rationality will again yield to juvenile ideas of what passes for truth…
IT’S A NEOLOGISM!
I just knew there was a word in English for newly-made-up words, as we mentioned last week at randi.org/joom/swift/swift-march-28-2008.html#i7. RoseAnne Mussar of Ottawa, Canada, promptly informed me:
There is a word in the English language for newly-coined words: is it "neologism." But I expect those creatively wacky SWIFT readers will come up with some neologistic zingers of their own!
Just to show that she can play the neological game, RoseAnne closed with:
SWIFT is the cyberhighlight of my week – can't get enough!
And reader Larry Coon wrote us:
Your “invented word assignment” already has an answer: “sniglet.” A comedian named Rich Hall coined it, and has been doing this for a couple decades. See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniglet
REAL STUFF
I just returned from a visit to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology [MIT] Media Lab, a magical place where I lectured at a closed session held for the prestigious sponsors of the Lab, among whom are Bank of America, Canon, Motorola, Cisco Systems, General Motors, and Microsoft. It was titled, “Trust Me,” and having a magician there seemed appropriate. I hadn’t spoken for the Media Lab since 1993, and experiencing the enthusiasm, spirit, and eager pursuit of knowledge that constitute the center, was even more exhilarating this time around. Young people of every cultural, ethnic, and philosophical background, work together with a zeal and dedication that I can only hope will infect other centers of learning and innovation around the world. The sponsors of the Media Lab are performing an essential service to all humanity, not just to the USA, by supporting this endeavor, and I’m sure they know it.
Fantastic devices, beautiful objects, exciting ideas and applications, are evident everywhere. I saw prototypes of innovative “green” vehicles, graphic demos of computer systems, and the very new “3-D printing” technique whereby intricate interlocking sculptures can be carved out (more correctly, laid down) by lasers, layer by layer. The first photo here shows just a sample of the thousands of Lego pieces that the Lab denizens fiddle with, and the cute animal doll is a robot with fully-articulated hands, as well as rolling and blinking eyes, which – among other tasks – assembles projected shapes on a table surface into other shapes and objects… The more traditional robot, also shown here, examines basic shapes, identifies them, and does simple tasks with them… It was a captivating atmosphere in which to be immersed, and I hope that I’ll be back for another visit very soon.
The Media Lab rules…!
FIND US ON YOUTUBE
We've been extremely busy here at the JREF going through our entire DVD library which currently consists of more than 300 discs. There is so much great content that we've decided to post them on the official YouTube channel of the foundation youtube.com/jamesrandifoundation.
There are currently 45 videos posted but many more are on the way. Our media manager has reported that he will be posting 1 DVD a day to the channel so make sure you subscribe so you are kept informed of the latest upload.
Here I share with you one of my many TV appearances in the 1980's. I was a guest on the show People Are Talking, you'll notice a now very famous host by the name of Oprah Winfrey. Make sure to leave comments on the videos after you watch them.
You've got to admit, Randi has a great turn of phrase!
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... written by Lore,
April 04, 2008
I hadn't heard this particular story but Randi wrote it up well. Alas, it seems one of these pops up every few months.
Trusting in God killed their daughter. Perhaps the "In God we Trust" unconstitutionally stuck on the national currency can be found partially responsible.
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... written by Niobe,
April 04, 2008
That woman in the youtube video is unbelievable. "Do you take little boys in your home?"
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... written by ChuckHash,
April 04, 2008
Regarding the first letter; it reads like a standard (and painfully sad) schizophrenic monologue. People suffering from mental illness are among the weakest of victims of the con artists. Should the author of the letter read this, I would like to express my deep hope that you seek help (remembering that you need to search carefully for help as the psychiatric and therapeutic professions have as many good and bad practitioners as any other field.)
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... written by eiskrystal,
April 04, 2008
I see the irony that Bob used a computer to complain about physics passed over his teeny tiny head. I have a feeling that many things do that though.
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... written by Fred Sciarratta,
April 04, 2008
Fred Sciarratta here. I do apologize Randi. Perhaps you are right, I should have just denied feeling anything. I guess my reasoning was to see how gullible these people were. That's why I moved on to the "cold spot" experiment. Besides, I was surrounded by a lot of believers, who as we know would probably just turn on me rather than try to have an intelligent conversation about the situation.
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... written by Critical Critique,
April 04, 2008
James Randi could've been the best psychic, prophet and whatever other paranormal phenomenon with supernatural abilities or powers while earning millions of dollars from the millions of suckers on this planet...
Sure glad, he's on our side... And I hope others will change their dark path and follow the footsteps of The Amazing Randi, and make a REAL difference for the future of humanity.
Call my a skeptic (!), but doesn't that e-mail from 'Bob' look just a bit like a well executed joke? Not quite sure who would waste their time with such a prank, but the references to physics and 'formulas' (sic) are just too good to be true.
But then I suppose that's one of the facets of woo woo. Sometimes it can be really hard to distinguish between a tongue-in-cheek comment and a firmly held belief.
Reminds me of the time a very experienced external consultant on management consultancy methods came to my place of work and mentioned that he occasionally visits an astrologer 'out of interest'. It took me a long time to realise he wasn't joking...
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... written by Andres Villarreal,
April 04, 2008
I am sorry to disagree with Randi, but I do think the legislation of every part of the world should penalize mistreatment of children in the name of God, or any other entity.
The laws are there to set the standard of what we believe is acceptable behavior, and in that sense they educate us in the minimum decency rules required to live in a community. The need to enforce the laws with prison terms is a sad necessity; what the community of Wisconsin really needs is the clear message from a court of law that says that all children are sacred and must receive the best care available, even if no parents are punished with jail time in the first instances.
Of course, the really best would be to have a law against convincing parents to endanger the children.
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... written by almon,
April 04, 2008
So if "Blah equals blah over blah squared!", then "blah" = /- 1 Bob is hilarious bordering on scary!
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... written by dsgall,
April 04, 2008
I'm very glad to know that Mr. Randi was here at MIT last week! I was on campus and I thought I saw someone who looked exactly like him but, by the time my brain had actually registered what I'd seen and I turned around, he was gone. Had I seen his ghost? (Perhaps his ghost would come to MIT!) But no, he was really here. I hope you had a great time at Media Lab (although the weather seemed to be threatening a windstorm)- they do rule! It just proves to me once again that MIT is a great place to work- you never know who will appear!
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... written by Steeev,
April 04, 2008
There ought to be a law...
It seems to me that the parents of Madeline Kara Neumann have already run afoul of a law I like to call "Natural Selection" (if it isn't a law, it ought to be). Nobody ever said that evolution was pretty.
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... written by Luigi Novi,
April 04, 2008
Thanks for speaking about Madeline Neumann, Mr. Randi. I first heard about her on March 26th on the blog of my favorite writer, Peter David, at: http://www.malibulist.com/mt/m...y_id=6133. Interestingly, the ensuing thread evolved into a discussion on the Autism-Thiomersal controversy, with a few bloggers advocating the notion that the vaccines cause autism (they don't), and that chelation helps someone infected with mercury (there's no evidence that it does). I and a couple of other regular posters there spoke up to correct these persons.
By the way, in the "Real Stuff" item above, in the sentence "I just returned from a visit to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology [MIT] Media Lab, a magical place that where I lectured at...", I don't think both "that" and "where" are necessary. (Just trying to help the site, mind you.)
I used to do something very similar to the stunt Fred pulled when I was a kid. I would pretend I could "see ghosts", direct other brats to cold spots, make them think a certain patch of grass where a ghost was standing was different in color, so on and so forth. I think I was imitating something I'd read in a book, since I loved spooky stories at that age. I don't recall if I had a blatant motive, but my family moved around a lot during my childhood so I probably hit on this as a method for instant attention and respect. I wonder if the so-called psychics who do this thing for a living are possibly not all total scammers, and that a few might be doing it because of deep-seated emotional insecurity? Anyhow, the ploy backfired when a little girl complained to the teacher that my evil eye caused her to lose an earring!
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... written by HidariMak,
April 04, 2008
Regarding the 11 year old who died of ketoacidosis, I remember seeing this story with a few other details when it appeared on Pharyngula. First off, the parents are still praying, only they're now praying for their daughter's resurrection. Second, that 11 year old girl left behind 3 siblings, and the police don't have a problem with the parents still raising them due to the fact that they don't see the parents as being at all responsible for that death.
I had ketoacidosis myself once, 25 years ago. The standard recovery time for it is a week, but I was fine a day later, and out of the hospital only 2 days after I was admitted. From what I'd read afterwards, it's amazing that Madeline Kara Neumann was able to hang on for a whole month. And if I were deluded, I'd call it a miracle that she did.
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... written by Skeptic Guy,
April 04, 2008
It seems that Oprah was capable of critical thought in her early career. A talent that she seems to have lost.
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... written by Michieux,
April 04, 2008
I see that one of those asked by the Neumanns to pray for their daughter is now using scripture to suggest the child died because of her parents' "unbelief."
Read the second and third press releases from this individual as well. In the topsy-turvy world of this person, death equals life, because "Real life is in the Kingdom of Heaven."
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... written by Diverted Chrome,
April 04, 2008
"we should not to be moralistic or pass judgment on parents"
Not sure I completely agree with blaming a book for something people did. Is this not the same as blaming metal/rap music for the lyrics? Aren't people responsible for their actions in the end? If somebody refuses medical attention because of a Harry Potter book do we blame the book? The problem is in the value people place in their interpretation and the actions they then ascribe based on those interpretations alone. Book-blaming only leads to book-banning, not to problem solving. Conversely, protection laws should apply to people, not books; blaming books would conversely imply protective status of same book(s)...
When a society allows the onus of responsibility for child-raising to pass to society itself (as suggested), instead of solely on the parents, you end up with crazy laws against everything adults are allowed to enjoy (we went through this in the US 15 years ago). The "protect the children" philosophy encroaches on freedom. No, this lies squarely on the shoulders of the parents who were too backwards to rightfully have children of their own, like 70% of integrity-lacking, xtian Americans who rely on supernatural intervention in the real world, regardless of an ongoing lack of any evidence.
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... written by jensfiederer,
April 04, 2008
> I believe you Fred, but please, in the future don’t go along with such > flummeries just to “move on.” You become part of the scam…
Yes. Instead of all this silly groping at her belly, you should have tried her breasts. If those got bigger and harder, you could have reported honestly.
If not, it might have cured her of asking people to run their hands over her.
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... written by fluffy,
April 04, 2008
I don't think anybody doubts that Uri Geller can really bend spoons. Of course, he uses his hands, just like everyone else.
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... written by avsn,
April 04, 2008
I will not belittle the tragedy of the needless death of the 11 yr old girl, but i will point out a problem. You are guilty of the same sin as the parents: abuse of your free will. I'd argue the point further but I know now you're impossible to reform.
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... written by Kelso,
April 04, 2008
A comment on the youtube videos. I note that Part 1 of 4 of the Tonight Show episode where Peter Popoff was exposed has already disappeared. I'm assuming this is because of the nastiness Mrs. Popoff said over the radio (I've never seen/heard this, just what I understand occurred). Any way you can post that episode over here at the jref site?
[admin]
I've just checked the YouTube page and part 1/4 of the Tonight Show episode is there and working fine.
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... written by Blackwell,
April 04, 2008
A note regarding Randi's 'Bob, it’s “Geller,” not “Geiler”!' comment -- he actually did spell it correctly; the first "l" is lowercase. (If you search for the text "geiler" on the page, you'll only find Randi's reference.)
Great Swift, as usual. Especially the commentary on Madeline Neumann's death.
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... written by vent,
April 04, 2008
did anybody else find this hilarious: "like teeny-boppers at an Alice Cooper show..."
I think you dated yourself a little there, Mr. Randi. Is that the modern equivilent to, "you young whipper-snappers!"
(Get off my lawn!)
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... written by Michelle Lyon,
April 04, 2008
Teeny-boppers didn't go to Alice Cooper. They went to New Kids On The Block.
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... written by FrankH,
April 04, 2008
Randi, you referred to a "demonstrably capricious, jealous, arrogant, vengeful, deity". Wouldn't demonstrating a deity of any sort qualify as supernatural enough to win the million dollars? I know what you mean but the deity is demonstrably anything only if you accept the book that describes him as Gospel as the truth.
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... written by Fred Sciarratta,
April 04, 2008
LOL at jensfiederer! It is 2 years later & I am wiser. If it happened today, I would definitely have acted different. I don't know about the breast grabbing though.
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... written by Michelle Lyon,
April 04, 2008
A distinction should be made regarding religious practices in the "Tragedy" story. We can't lump ALL christians and ALL Bible-readers together. The problem lies in certain sectors of Christianity which are actually cults, but because they follow "God" and "The Bible" and call themselves "Christians" they are recognized as a "church" by the government because of the old first-ammendment argument. But there is a legal distinction between believing in a religion and practicing aspects of any religion which causes harm. Examples of this would be poligamy, animal sacrifice, hate-crimes, and yes, denial of medical care resulting in suffering and death.
Whether someone wants to believe in religious woo is their business, however, we need to enforce the practicing of such beliefs where it harms others, and start restricting the claiming of Christianity as a method of gaining government permission to practice cults. These parents need to be charged.
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... written by Careyp74,
April 04, 2008
Please, AVSN, cleanse us of our sins. What is the so called abuse of free will that Randi is guilty of? If you aren't going to back it up because you say that arguing is useless, then wasn't it useless to make your statement in the first place?
Good observation Blackwell, though I have to admit I thought the same thing as Randi when I read it the first time. (I had to use Word to back up your claim)
I agree with Andre, I don't understand what Randi is saying by feeling uncomfortable with the last paragraph. The laws should be there, even if it doesn't stop all of them, it will definitely not leave a way out for those intentionally breaking the laws. Don't want to give any sick people out there an excuse for what they do.
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... written by avsn,
April 04, 2008
reading the comments i see a need: we need laws that say it is okay for an adult to say no to medical treatments but that refusing to treat or seek treatment for a clearly ill child is wrong.
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... written by Scott Smalling,
April 04, 2008
Regarding the IOWA COUNTY story: Due to some negative public reactions, the Johnson County Board of Supervisors has agreed to review the idea again at it's meeting on April 9th.
Here is a link to the story from the Iowa City Press Citizen:
FYI: Quirinus Quirrell was the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry during Harry Potter's first year.
So "Bob" is apparently a Harry Potter fan.
- Jon
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... written by Chris C.,
April 04, 2008
It's a pity Randi feels the need to use the tragedy of Madeline Neumann's death to sound the drum on some of his religious straw-men. As I've said before, there ought to be enough true grist for his mill without resorting to falsehoods.
It will surprise Randi to learn that clergy in the US may not ignore tax laws. I have no idea how he could possibly come up with such a notion. They have to pay income tax just like everyone else. It's the churches as organizations that are exempt, just like any other not-for-profit organization. Seeing as how the vast majority of them do not in fact turn a profit, this isn't even unreasonable. Clergy are treated as employees of their churches, have their income reported on W-2 forms, and must also report income they receive apart from their ordinary wages just as a waiter must report tip income.
The claim that the Neumann's refusal of medical treatment of their daughter is "something that the majority of the rest of our species had been drumming into the Neumanns as an example of what prayer could and would solve, just by applying it" is untrue on its face. It would be an uphill battle to show that most MDs are atheists. They actually represent a fair sampling of religious belief. If so many theists really preached what Randi claims here, that medical treatment should be ignored in favor of prayer, that they constitute a majority of the species, an MD would be an extremely odd choice of profession for one. But in the real world it's not all that unusual. Wonder of wonders, we even find hospitals where real medicine is practiced operated by religious organizations.
I'm going to go a step further here, because I'm getting tired of this. For people like Randi to lay tragedies like this at the feet of all theism in general, while at the same time disclaiming on their part the atrocities committed by atheists in the 20th century, is the height of hypocrisy. We have many examples of humane governments operated by theists or according to theistic principles. (To the extent that any government is humane, that is.) Those examples we have of avowedly atheist states, which are not the same as secular states, have been anything but.
Strangely, Randi actually mentions one here: The Khmer Rouge. Why he would draw attention to one of the cruelest atheist regimes in recent history in the middle of a pro-atheism screed is beyond me.
Humane atheist states are the exception, not the rule. I say that only because I allow for ignorance on my part. I do not in fact know of any.
It would be perfectly valid for atheists to dissociate themselves from these states and atrocities on the grounds of ideological differences -- if only they distinguished among theists the same way. Sorry, folks. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you're going to lump all theists together for the sake of condemning them over things like this, then you have to be man enough to take your own lumps.
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... written by davcar23,
April 04, 2008
Couldn't Madeline Kara Neumann's case be one of those where parents just want other people's sympathy so they poison their children or just deny medical attention?
On the videos, it seems that the only person not convinced by Randi's explanation was the second lady making her question, I guess she only remembered what she needed to hear by her psychic reading so she was in denial. It was so exciting to see how Randi works, lots of humor, sarcastic but not as much to be taken as an insult; and the way he talks with the hosts and the audience, wow!! And performing the magic tricks was like showing everyone that if you can use trickery to entertain it can also be used to scam so watch out.
David C.
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... written by drowven,
April 04, 2008
As for the death of 11 year old Madeline Kara Neumann it is surely tragic, but making laws against this type of thing are all well and good if the laws would be enforced. Many examples of laws on the books aren't enforced because the people that should be enforcing them aren't. The solution in my opinion is to educate as many people as possible and hope logical people one day out produce the theists.
As for the scammers who practice and deliver obvious falsehoods a study on finding out how many lack empathy and guilt may prove that these people suffer from psychopathy. An interesting law would be one where psychopathy is observed are forced to seek treatment until there negative societal behavior changes.
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... written by DZiemke,
April 04, 2008
Randi strikes a very hard iron with this piece on Madeline Newmann. I give him credit for standing up and taking the issue directly and without the cushion of trying to be nice-nice. I, too, am very tired of the Chrisitan-right being conditional in laying proof to their faith. They claim proof in God's goodness when things go their way, yet never blame God when things go the wrong way. How can they continuously believe in their faith when , according to their Bible, Madeline should have been healed and saved? Why do they not throw their fists in the air, shout "Why?!", and start questioning their way of life? I just don't get it, and it saddens me.
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... written by Skemono,
April 05, 2008
"Bob" wrote to Randi,
Well, some people wish magic was real.
Well, yeah. I'm one of them. I grew up on superhero comic books, shonen manga, and Dungeons & Dragons. Magic, telekinesis, telepathy, superpowers--I would dearly love for any of these to be real. But my wish for them to be real does not make it so.
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... written by Kuroyume,
April 05, 2008
did anybody else find this hilarious: "like teeny-boppers at an Alice Cooper show..."
I think you dated yourself a little there, Mr. Randi. Is that the modern equivilent to, "you young whipper-snappers!"
(Get off my lawn!)
Randi worked with Alice Cooper in the 'ye olden' days so this must be a dated but much beloved reference to those young-uns who were into that evile, sinnin' music back then.
On the Madeline topic, the law should protect people no matter what - even from stupid parents. Religion is no excuse for stupidity (well, it is the cause of much of it, yes?). Methinks that 'religious freedom' in this country has been taken too far and too literally. It should stop, dead in its tracks, the moment that it puts another's life at peril.
I'm outta here, bye.
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... written by billhirst,
April 05, 2008
Madeline's death was deeply disturbing and criminal at best. However, I don't think lumping Christian fundamentalists with Nazis makes any more sense at all. For one example, I haven't heard of many racially-oriented mass extermination campaigns by the Christians. this millennium. That part of your rhetoric was nothing but inflammatory rhetoric and I've never seen you stoop so low. Fie upon you for it.
Now, ignoring for a moment the way you stooped to unacceptable name calling, there is one grain of truth in your remarks. There should be no religious excuse for child abuse. Abuse is what I call any mistreatment resulting in a child's death--especially when any reasonable person is aware that there is effective medial treatment. These parents are not isolated Tibetan villagers. They live in a civilized country with access to radio, television and newspapers. There is no excuse for their ignorance or the ignorance of their leaders.
Somebody should pay for this crime.
I'm sorry, but I will not read the rest of your column today. Your points are valid, but you've degenerated into a hate-monger today.
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... written by avillarrealpouw,
April 05, 2008
Chris says: "It will surprise Randi to learn that clergy in the US may not ignore tax laws. I have no idea how he could possibly come up with such a notion. They have to pay income tax just like everyone else." This is plainly not true. Once you can declare most of your income and properties as belonging to a tax exempt organization, you will only have to pay taxes on the rest. Also, you can receive donations and it is not very easy for the accounting procedures alone to classify each expenditure as "living expenses" or tax exempt charity work. Just look at the tele-evangelists' way of life, and you will see that only some people dedicated to religion live up to the frugal life expected of those dedicated to religion and charity work.
"The parents' blind belief was that by pleading for a miracle from this demonstrably capricious, jealous, arrogant, vengeful, deity, they could reject medical assistance that is very capable of successfully treating the ailment from which Madeline suffered. This sort of perverse notion persists among the religious in spite of the plain historical fact that millions of humans were tortured and killed by the Nazis in World War II, by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, by the Holy Roman Inquisition, and by literally hundreds of other mass atrocities. Those people died despite the earnest, desperate, prayers of the victims - and of those who loved them - directed at this deity in whom they invested their faith."
If you read that closely, you will see that the Nazis (and the Khmer Rouge, and the Holy Inquisition) are mentioned not so that fundamentalist Christians can be compared to them, but as perpertrators of mass atrocities from which the victims were not saved in spite of their earnest, desperate prayers to a deity. Randi is not saying that Christian fundamentalists are on a par with the perpetrators of those crimes. What he is saying is that religious people who, in spite of the plain historical fact that prayer didn't help the millions of victims of mass atrocities, still believe in miracles to the extent where they would reject effective medical treatment and plead for a miracle instead - well, that that is a "perverse notion" on their part. That is not putting it too harshly - and it certainly isn't hate-mongering.
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... written by KayJayTee,
April 05, 2008
Ben – thanks for posting your comment. Ironically, I was about to submit an almost identical one, but you beat me to it. Nicely done!
I will add one thing: Chris C, if you are still reading this, your entire comment is based on the same false reading of Randi’s words, and while you complain of “straw men,” you effectively erected one of your own. Furthermore, if we were to actually do a statistical comparison of atrocities committed in the name of religion vs. atrocities committed by atheists throughout history, I would venture to say that the theists’ body count would still be substantially, possibly exponentially, higher. Nothing seems to give people in power a taste for blood quite like thinking God is on their side.
And on a personal note, as the father of two girls whom I adore, when I read about Madeline last week I felt physically ill. Call me a crazy atheist if you will, but I hope mom and dad are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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... written by Michael,
April 06, 2008
KayJayTee: actually, I think you'll find that the number killed in religion-inspired atrocities is far less than those killed by athiest regimes. This is largely due to the scale of the "athiest" atrocites in the last 100 years (perpetrated by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Japanese against the Chinese etc). As terrible as the Crusades & Inquisition were, the number killed was vastly less.
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... written by inquisitiveraven,
April 06, 2008
Blackwell, Caryp74: I suggest that you go look at "bob's" letter again. He spells the name correctly through the body of the letter, and the misspells it in all caps in the PS. I think that's what Randi was poking at.
Michael, may I point out that while the Japanese may not have been Christian, they did believe the Emperor to be descended from their traditional gods and hence divine? I wouldn't call their atrocities "atheist" even if they weren't especially religiously inspired, and it's debatable how much their religion fed into their actions. In addition, many Nazis were at least nominally Christian, and Hitler at least proclaimed religious motives for his hate, so you have to add the Holocaust on the religious side of the balance. As the Japanese example shows, you can't assume that all religiously inspired killings stem from Levantine faiths.
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... written by Michael,
April 06, 2008
Inquisitiveraven: we could argue all day about what consitutes an "athiest" atrocity, but I don't think you would disagree that the Mao and Stalin regimes were "athiest". Even one of these resulted in numbers of deaths that would vastly overwhelm the number of people killed in all the Crusades / Inquisition put together.
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... written by Michael,
April 06, 2008
Forgot to mention: I hardly think you could call Hitler Christian, but even if you allow the Holocaust as a "religious" atrocity, "athiest" atrocities still caused a far greater total number of deaths.
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... written by entelekk,
April 06, 2008
"THE NOSTRADAMUS CODE-EXPLAINED:
In 1558., Nostradamus, writing to the King, mentions the Chaldean number/alphabet, (numerology).... This system produced extraordinary results, which were verified by senior researchers at Princeton University, School of Applied Science.
The nature of number coincidences were discussed by Dr. Carl Jung, and Professor W. Pauli, Nobel laureate, physics. They concluded that number is the most primal archetype of order in the human mind, and are pre-existent to consciousness.
The star Kochab has a long history in mythology, with references dating to 2,467 b.c.e. It, and a companion star are known as the Guardians of the Pole. It's very possible that Kochab will be the next supernova to appear in our galaxy; sometime this year....
To understand the nature of quantum theory regarding 'acausal connections' - see Pauli and Jung, on net.
"man has need of the word, but in essence number is sacred." Jung.... "our primary mathematical intuitions can be arranged before we become conscious of them." Pauli....
"entelekk" - numomathematics
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... written by tes,
April 06, 2008
"[As terrible as the Crusades & Inquisition were, the number killed was vastly less.]" Can we make a meaningful comparison? The technical means, both for getting around and for killing as such, as well as the number of victims available were on a quite different level...
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... written by NHR,
April 06, 2008
inquisitiveraven: Yeah, the PS. part of "Bob's" letter was exactly the part Blackwell et al. were referring to above: copy it in Word (or some other text editor, whatever you might be using), change to some other font (Times New Roman works just fine here), and you'll see that it's NOT "all caps"; the first "l" in "GElLER" is in lower case...
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... written by JakeR,
April 06, 2008
billhirst, April 05, 2008:
For one example, I haven't heard of many racially-oriented mass extermination campaigns by the Christians. this millennium.
Sorry billhirst, but such actions were the standard of Christian exploration and colonization of the Americas and the Pacific. The toll for North America alone is thought to fall between 2 and 20 million native people. Perhaps you've heard of the smallpox-infected blankets given to the Indians? Or the fact that native people today occupy only a tiny fraction of their former lands, often the former lands of other tribes? Or that the Cherokees were forced to walk from the Carolinas to Oklahomah, 4000 of them dying on the way? Elsewhere, what about the Zulu wars in South Africa? Apparently you haven't heard much of anything about history in the past millenium.
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... written by someguy,
April 06, 2008
I have a Nazi era belt. The insignia on the buckle includes the prominent words "Gott Mit Uns" My German isn't too good; nevertheless I expect a direct translation is: God With You. Meaning something like, 'God is with you' or 'God goes with you' My Danish mother, a child during the occupation, remembers those buckles and words quite well.
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... written by inquisitiveraven,
April 06, 2008
someguy: Actually it's "God with us." But yeah, I'd say that makes my point re: the Holocaust.
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... written by Careyp74,
April 06, 2008
inquisitiveraven,
I almost said the same thing to Blackwell, but I reread what he wrote. The Geller in the P.S. is not all in caps, the first "L" that looks like an "i" is actually an "l"
You can copy what he wrote and past it into Word, then hit the all caps function to see what I mean. Why are we arguing about this?
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... written by bonnie,
April 07, 2008
I registered today just so I could respond to the first piece, "Tragedy". I agree completely with BBC news, and could not disagree more with Randi. I am the daughter of devout Christian Scientists. Our family went to church twice a week, every week. I was never immunized, never taken to a doctor, and led to believe that prayer was not only an alternative to medicine, but that it was a superior alternative- not superior just in results, but in some moral or spiritual way. I believed this until I was 19, when I came to the realization that I didn't believe in god any more, and if god didn't exist, praying to him was a bit silly. My parents are rational, reasonable people who taught me to think critically (about everything except god, of course). If I sent them the "dearlove" psychic example, they would be able to point out most of the reasons swift readers sent in not to believe in it. They understand, for example, all about cold reading and assigning undue importance to coincidence- they are the ones who taught these things to me. However, they have a blind spot when it comes to Christian Science. Psychics are bunk. Crystals are bunk. Dowsing is bunk, ghosts are bunk, ouija boards are bunk, and televangelist faith healers are bunk... but Christian Science works! Theirs is a blind spot that no amount of education will remove, because they truly believe that when things aren't working, (ie, when the person they're praying for doesn't seem to be getting better), that's when you need to reaffirm your faith, dig in your heels, and believe in god's ability to do anything. If you give up, no healing will take place. I will never be able to change their minds, and Christian Science is such a part of their lives that in order to change now, they would have to admit things (all at once!) that would be devastating. Two grandparents, an aunt, and my young cousin (she's on the lists Randi sometimes links to- of children who died because of their parents' religious beliefs) died too young, for the sole reason that they were Christian Scientists. I'm not sure that I would be willing (or able!) to admit that I made all the decisions in my life, for more than 50 years, based on a premise that's utterly false. I love my parents very much, and they love my sister and myself more than anything else in the world, but that doesn't change the unpleasant reality that if either of us had ever had a life-threatening childhood illness, there's a good possibility that my parents would not have sought treatment, and that we would have died. They absolutely would not have sought treatment until we were in a very, very bad state- and I do not know if they would have sought it even if we were dying. That's a sobering thing to think about your own parents. Would my parents have allowed me to die rather than seek help outside their religious beliefs? I honestly can't answer that question.
From a very young age I knew all about the laws that allowed exemption from immunization and health education for the children of Christian Scientists, and was happy in the knowledge that my parents would never be prosecuted for child abuse should something happen to me. My parents relied on these laws. However, in the 80's and 90's, more cases of childhood death were given media attention, and some states started to get rid of the laws protecting the "right" of parents not to seek medical attention for their children. In order to protect itself, the Christian Science church (according to my parents, and they follow these things very closely), now officially advises its members to comply with all state laws regarding health care for their children, and assures parents that the church sanctions them seeking medical attention for their children (while continuing to pray for them, of course). It has also changed the rules for membership to the Mother Church. It is no longer a requirement that a prospective member seek no medical treatment or help, and rely solely on Christian Science. This is a huge improvement in policy, so far as I am concerned. My parents will not seek medical help for themselves, no matter what, and they will probably die young, like their parents before them. That's not a happy thought for me, but in the end it is their own decision to make. Children are another matter. If you get rid of the laws that protect them, parents will be forewarned that their actions have consequences, and some of them will act accordingly. Churches will realize their members are no longer above the law, and some of them will act accordingly. Every time a state overturns such a law, I will greet the news with joy and relief.
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... written by KidCharlemagne,
April 07, 2008
There is no such thing as "Atheist atrocities". One does not commit acts in the name of "no god". "Atheist" and "Atheism" are descriptive words, not ideologies which adhere to doctrines. The only atrocity an "Atheist" would be guilty of commiting in the name of "Atheism" is that which a deist sees, the atrocity of disbelief.
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... written by ChuckHash,
April 07, 2008
"For one example, I haven't heard of many racially-oriented mass extermination campaigns by the Christians. this millennium. "
Sorry, billhirst, but there very much was a mass-extermination campaign by christians not too many years ago - the Nazis. Have a look at Mein Kampf; Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic in good standing, on a mission for God. That's not inflammatory rhetoric, that's just quoting the founder of the Holocaust.
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... written by jensfiederer,
April 07, 2008
"For one example, I haven't heard of many racially-oriented mass extermination campaigns by the Christians. this millennium. "
This may be a trick phrasing. This millennium has very few years in it, and no mass exterminations outside of Africa.
And Fred, the grabbing is entirely optional. I've never met the lady, so I can't estimate the sacrifice involved.
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... written by bobobob,
April 07, 2008
Oh, if only we could somehow coerce Oprah to watch that video every morning until she remembers that rationality, delivered well, can sell too!
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... written by dancat,
April 08, 2008
There is a basic weakness in the argument about atrocities carried out by Nazis, Communists and other groups discussed in this thread being proof that "atheists" have committed more atrocities than "believers".
Although Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin et al did not believe in a "Supreme Being", their philosophies are based on the same principle as the "theists". "My belief system is superior to yours, and if you do not subscribe to it, I will destroy you".
When indulging is this sort of debate it would be better to remove the concept "god" and replace it with "faith". Pol Pot did not slaughter Buddhists for their religious convictions per se, he slaughtered them because he regarded them as a threat to his plans for conquest.
Adolf Hitler did not only indulge in wholesale murder of Jews, he murdered millions of others because of their sexual orientation, ethnic origins or nationality. Many of those he slaughtered were Christians!
...and there's the rub! Christians have slaughtered other Christians because of their inherent belief that THEIR form of Christianity is superior. In the Middle East, Sunni Muslims slaughter Shi'ite Muslims (and vice versa). Hindus slaughter Muslims (and v.v.). Tutsis slaughter Hutus...
Can you see the pattern that is emerging? Human beings have a tendency to kill those who do not share their beliefs. God/Marx/Buddha is merely the excuse they use to justify their atrocities.
And the final irony: on a website dedicated to scepticism, the discussion about moral superiority still rears its ugly head. Killing people is wrong. Letting them die for ANY reason, faith, moral superiority (is a dead Iraqi child any less dead than Madeline Kara Neumann),wilful ignorance is morally reprehensible.
"For one example, I haven't heard of many racially-oriented mass extermination campaigns by the Christians this millennium. " True, but I haven't noticed too many campaigns dedicated to rescuing human beings from their only folly either...
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... written by I Ratant,
April 09, 2008
One of my lady friends in her earlier profession as crack whore had the state take her child away some years back. She hasn't been permitted access since. In the (not isolated) instance of child abuse by failing to provide medical care for religious reasons, there was apparently no medical supervision of the child's health for 8 years. When does the interest of the state/public get involved in the health of a minor child? If the parents chose to remove the child from the attention of the state, how is that possibly handled other than to hope for the best, or ignore the situation as unsolvable?
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... written by woodym,
April 09, 2008
Thanks Bonnie for sharing your experience and views. I too was raised as a Christian Scientist, and I too chose to drift away from the church years ago in my teens. I'm still conflicted about whether the state should be allowed to intervene in family medical choice, and admittedly my p
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I think you dated yourself a little there, Mr. Randi. Is that the modern equivilent to, "you young whipper-snappers!" 
You've got to admit, Randi has a great turn of phrase!