Comments for VACCINES WORK! at http://www.randi.org/site , comment 1 to 17 out of 17 comments http://www.randi.org/site Wed, 22 May 2013 04:43:26 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19827 Besides the comments that I've posted here [url]http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=6593106&postcount=96[/url], let me just say that I know that thalidomide is not a vaccine. If you'd read the OP, you would see why I'm discussing thalidomide in my comment. It's an easy mistake to make when you're already a bit highly-strung so don't beat yourself up over it. Read the article - trusetheeker Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:20:02 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19820 Truse, you are so full of BS, as proven here already: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=192484 Your sources of misinformation are also making me gag. We've shown that vaccinated women actually have LESS miscarriages, and no vaccine has been shown to be able cause any. Physicians have to pay for the vacciens, so your net income is BS. "Big pharma" has to pay people to make vaccines safe and effective, and this includes research and testing. Your "net income" claim is even more BS. Thalidomide is NOT vaccine. Treating sick people is far costlier to the medical system than vaccines. Far more money is saved by keeping people out of hospitals. Vaccine prevent diseases, and saves me and other laypersons money too. - Eosine Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:11:27 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19738 I've read Swift's lead and the comments above and must now cry "Foul!" This pseudo-scientific renunciation of the anti-vaccine movement is pure propaganda in support of pharma and medical industries' money-spinning, "snake-oil-treatment" vaccination program. I can only wonder if the supporting comments are echoes of those who want to be convinced or those who are inescapably mired in the mind programming. Although I will counter with evidence in support of my opposing opinion, I'll first point out some of the glaring instances of disinformation from the lead article. As a professional magician, Swift will well know the techniques of misdirection and suggestion and of course that's how he starts the article: "the [b]harmful[/b] anti-vaccine crowd" vs "science based medicine community"; "their misinformation" vs "to correct misinformation"; and finally "spreading real vaccine awareness" vs the suggestion that anti-vaccine activists are spreading false vaccine awareness. Then comes the psuedo-science: How many "...human lives have been saved since medical science came up with vaccines back in the 1770s."? Why, "literally millions!" And later on, he says "The lives saved are incalculable." He could have added "The lives lost due to vaccination are also incalculable" as both of these last statements are true. Swift even tries a bit of sleight of hand by misusing the word skeptic. TheFreeDictionary.com defines a skeptic as "One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions." When it comes to vaccinations, at least in the western world, the generally accepted conclusion is that vaccinations are safe, effective and life-savers. People who don't accept this viewpoint are at best considered skeptics but more apt to be labelled as ignorant, naive, irresponsible, self-deceiving child-killing, dangers to society. Swift finally pulls out the industries heavy artillery in the form of scare-mongering with his warning of a "Dark Age...in which a generation of children may be decimated through the ignorance of the public..." Well guess what - we're already in the Dark Ages! Go back over the press for the last Swine Flu Pandemic (that never was) and see how WHO and CDC hyped up the dangers, forced the world to spend billions on untested vaccine, counted every person who got sick as having H1N1 without full testing, and wrote off every adverse reaction as being due to underlying health conditions. Even now they're denying that even one miscarriage was related to the vaccine despite 100s being reported. A similar air of denial accompanies every report of serious adverse affects from any vaccine including last years Gardasil and Cervarix catastrophes. Review the history of the thalidomide "scare" where 100,000 babies died in the womb and of 10,000 born with defects almost half died in their first year. Read how the UK government stonewalled the victim's families for years before even admitting that the drug was at fault and removing it from use. Read how in countries such as Spain, no compensation has been paid to victims even 40+ years later. Review the history of polio and note how the occurrence of polio increased and declined in relation to the production and phase-out of DDT. Also note how post-polio exploded at the time of DDTs re-emergence in the 1980s. Mark where the Salk vaccine entered the frame as polio was already on the way out. Ref: http://harpub.co.cc/pol_all.htm Read "The Dangers of Smallpox Vaccination" by Gary Krasner for an alternative viewpoint on the success of the smallpox vaccine. (http://www.naturodoc.com/library/public_health/truth_re_smallpox_vaccine.htm) In closing, let's hear what Guy L. Kiefer, M. D., Commissioner of Health of Michigan, says in the Journal the Michigan State Medical Society, Aug. 1920: (http://soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020110shelton/020110shelton07.html) "In this state there are 100,000 people born annually. They are practically all susceptible to diphtheria from the moment they are born. They are highly susceptible from the age of six months until they are immunized. If these infants were all immunized, and for this service the physicians receive from $5.00 to $10.00 per case, the net income would be from $500,000-$1,000,000 Michigan has 5,000 cases of diphtheria annually. If the physicians received for their services, exclusive of all other costs, an average of $50.00 per case the income from this source would be $250,000. The increase in physicians income from diphtheria would be from one-quarter to three-quarters of of a million dollars, if we would immunize all children against this disease soon after they are six months of age, instead of waiting until they are stricken with the disease and then treating them." Thar's gold in them thar hills! - trusetheeker Wed, 17 Nov 2010 05:48:56 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19642 [quote]And beyond [i]being[/i] a pharmacist, i [i]am[/i] a ....[/quote] For someone who expects to be penalized for an extra letter "e" you're a bit sloppy. Are you going to school to be a pharmacist, or a pharmacy tech? OCP = Ontario College of Pharmacy? - Caller X Tue, 09 Nov 2010 05:39:03 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19615 Unfortunately, you will have to give up your ideals when you go to work in a pharmacy, unless you open your own "mom-and-pop" one. The big pharmacy chains are all selling homeopathic and other unproven "remedies", so you will find that you will be in the business of selling them, too. You can't even speak against them or you will be fired for discouraging sales. - GusGus Sun, 07 Nov 2010 09:39:05 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19612 I think Americans could see the Thalidomide tragedy as an example of medical science protecting people - Dr. Frances Oldham Kelsey withheld approval of the drug in the USA, even though it was already in use in Europe and Canada, because she noticed a report of side effects in England, and wasn't satisfied with the explanation the pharma company provided. - markbellis Sun, 07 Nov 2010 03:13:28 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19610 sibtrag I notice you mention you did not give chicken pox vaccination "for other reasons". When people think of chicken pox they usually think no big deal a week off school for the kids, which is true as far as that is concerned. However having had chicken pox (most of us have)we become liable to a bout of shingles later in life. This can be very debilitating and even leave the patient with impaired vision and sometimes permanent nerve pain. So if a chicken pox shot prevents chicken pox and thus shingles it is more than worth while. I rarely see the shingles aspect of chicken pox mentioned. The vaccination for shingles after you have had chicken pox is costly and only 50% effective. - sailor Sat, 06 Nov 2010 15:54:28 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19609 I think it is fairly obvious due to the references within the post itself that i am not claiming to be a pharmacist. I was using the term Pharmacist, in that sense, to give a contrast to the term crap disturber. To illustrate that while i am interested in going into a particular field, i am also a person who does not go along with the flow if there is evil afoot. Poor choice of words, possibly, but seeing as within the first 5 words i explain that i am in school ( not to mention other references to the fact that i am not currently in any form of pharmacy practice. ) i would not have thought someone would interpret the exact opposite from my post. - Sadhatter Sat, 06 Nov 2010 09:32:24 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19607 [quote]As someone who is currently going to school with the goal of becoming a pharmacist, ( and hopefully a member of the OCP) I can say, the image of " big pharma" as these evil minions bent on profit , is just simply false. Every pharmacist i know is a well meaning, educated person who decided to become a pharmacist for the same reasons i did. To help people. Sure there are money hungry idiots out there who want nothing more than a big house and a free trip to the bahamas. But they are incredibly few and far between, and the higher up the food chain you go, the less of these people there are.[/quote] "Big Pharma" doesn't mean pharmacists. It means companies like Merck, [i]et al[/i]. If the people higher up aren't trying to maximize profits, they are not doing their duty to their shareholders. [quote] [b]And beyond being a pharmacist[/b], i am a ....to put it politely, crap disturber. If there was evil going on, i would be exposing it, i would be documenting it, and as an amateur filmmaker, i would be bringing it to the world. But i simply don't see it. That is not to say i don't see mistakes, and other bad things, but they are balanced by a system that is strict in the extreme in enforcing rules, and making sure these rules benefit the customer.[/quote] I would say claiming to be a pharmacist when you're still in school is a prettttty biggggg breaking of the rules. - Caller X Sat, 06 Nov 2010 06:29:11 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19602 This website covers the (non)debate very well http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ - Peebs Fri, 05 Nov 2010 16:20:09 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19601 I forgot to post the link to the article, so sorry http://extro1.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/vaccinations-part-1/ - Extro1 Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:44:47 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19600 A couple of months ago I wrote a blog entry on this very topic. Would LOVE your feedback. Keep up the good work. - Extro1 Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:42:17 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19596 As someone who is currently going to school with the goal of becoming a pharmacist, ( and hopefully a member of the OCP) I can say, the image of " big pharma" as these evil minions bent on profit , is just simply false. Every pharmacist i know is a well meaning, educated person who decided to become a pharmacist for the same reasons i did. To help people. Sure there are money hungry idiots out there who want nothing more than a big house and a free trip to the bahamas. But they are incredibly few and far between, and the higher up the food chain you go, the less of these people there are. And beyond being a pharmacist, i am a ....to put it politely, crap disturber. If there was evil going on, i would be exposing it, i would be documenting it, and as an amateur filmmaker, i would be bringing it to the world. But i simply don't see it. That is not to say i don't see mistakes, and other bad things, but they are balanced by a system that is strict in the extreme in enforcing rules, and making sure these rules benefit the customer. The anti vax'ers need to open their eyes, woo medicine is out for profit, and yes, so is real medicine. The difference is that us practicing real medicine ( or specifically in my case, going to school in order to practice real medicine.) make sure our products work. It isn't about making people feel better, it isn't about peddling a product. It is about making a good living helping people, with things that may be far from perfect, but that work. There seems to be this misunderstanding that woo medicine does not make money, or that those who peddle it are more out for your best interest than those peddling real medicine. But look at it logically. Who is looking out for your best interest, the man who consents to be reprimanded if they so much as spell your name with an extra E ( and yes this is something that gets one in real trouble as a pharmacist.) , or the guy who protests at the fact that his medicines will have to prove themselves? More than likely i will end up operating a pharmacy, at the very least until i prove myself worthy of membership in the OCP, and i can tell you, my stomach would be in knots selling someone something that cannot even promise results. Let alone a medicine that has been proven time and time again, to be no more effective than a sugar pill. - Sadhatter Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:13:00 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19595 I'm glad that an effort is going to counter the mis-information. I know first hand how it feels to have little knowledge on this topic. The first vaccine-autism connection study broke not too long before my child was born. This was a difficult decision for us. I understood the proven benefits of vaccines and we have a family friend who lives with the debilitating effects of polio. My wife has worked with children at various points on the autism spectrum and knows the pain and grief that that disorder can cause. While doctors were skeptical about the vaccine-autism hypothesis, no one knew then (or now) what really causes autism and no conclusive studies were done. My opinion at the time was that the vaccine itself was an unlikely culprit, but that the mercury compound which was then commonly used as a preservative was more plausible. Therefore, we delayed vaccination until mercury-free vaccines were available for use. Our child is now up-to-date (except for chicken pox which we omitted for other reasons) and healthy in all respects. Of course, now the thiomersal connection is also viewed as unlikely as well and we need to get the word out. Science-based medicine worked as it should...a reasonable hypothesis was advanced, the precautionary principle was viewed as appropriate, and action was taken. In hindsight, this may have been too conservative, but scientists do not claim to be psychics. - sibtrag Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:45:53 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19594 [b]@melanie[/b] True- you should have spelled it 'fourth'! :D - daveg703 Fri, 05 Nov 2010 05:20:32 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19593 I misspelled "fifth" myself. ;) - melanie Fri, 05 Nov 2010 04:58:17 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1137-vaccines-work.html#comment-19592 There's a typing mistake in the fith passage where it says "[...] autism, foe example." Good article. - melanie Fri, 05 Nov 2010 04:55:41 +0100