Comments for A Clean Rant at http://www.randi.org/site , comment 1 to 40 out of 20 comments http://www.randi.org/site Sat, 25 May 2013 17:14:22 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2827 I wrote a longer post - which may or may not appear. This is the reader's digest version. [b]Natural[/b] is a meaningless marketing term used in the cosmetics industry. An industry that is about as well regulated as the Herbal Supplements Industry. Essential Oils are very expensive - most companies use synthetic versions of the scents or essences in their products and then slap "Natural" or "Aromatherapy" or "Soothing Natural" or you get the picture. [b]Organic[/b] requires certification by the USDA. At a minimum the product must contain 95% organic ingredients. The 95% does not include water and salt. Your mileage on Organic vs Synthetic may vary. A quick though more thorough search of the interwebs on Bamboo used in hair care products resulted in the following: Bamboo will make your hair straighter Bamboo will make your hair curlier and more defined Bamboo when combined with "nanosilver" and charcoal will cure dandruff And each one of those claims has the same amount of research behind it as Jeff's rant. Zero. - BlackCatThursday Thu, 05 Feb 2009 07:32:44 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2792 The supreme irony of this whole rant that seems to be lost is this - "ginger, green tea, white tea, vanilla, almond, coconut, spearmint, peppermint, raspberry, parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme" these are all CHEMICALS many of which provide sodium lauryl sulfate, emulsions, preservatives and mild fragrance to soap, exactly what the author asked for. That's why they are used in the first place. - lsinervo Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:15:46 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2779 [quote]Humor is always appreciated[/quote] Then how come I've accumulated so many negative votes? :D [quote]...in fact, we'd do well to show that humor and skeptics are not mutually exclusive.[/quote] The Australian sceptic magazine is full of humour from cover to cover. It is even called "The Skeptic" rather than "The Sceptic". How's that for humour (or should I have said "humor"?) I do fear for our counterparts in the US though. It's really tough to get them to crack a smile. :( BJ - BillyJoe Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:22:48 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2771 Jeff, I fully understood your piece was a rant. Since you`re a programmer, think of this situation. Remember "Man of the Year" with Robin Williams and the computer glitch that allowed the rest of the plot to happen? Makes the movie not so funny, but one could still enjoy it. Now, take that movie and put in under a banner that says education. Now, remember the site that has the banner regularly comments on how other people are dishonest, delusional, stupid, full of woo-woo, don't know anything about science, claim personal antidotes as evidence because they are so uneducated etc etc. These comments are made even about TV shows on psychic issues, ones that are clearly meant to entertain and not be documentaries. Are you getting that the COMBO of circumstances of your rant is what elicited the response from me? Motto is, if you throw stones, don't buy a glass house. - lsinervo Wed, 04 Feb 2009 04:35:24 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2770 Swift doesn't do 'rigorous scientific pieces' either, that's not its intent. Humor is always appreciated, in fact, we'd do well to show that humor and skeptics are not mutually exclusive. My late wife was a lifelong faithful Christian, which might have led to serious problems given I am an atheist, but she tolerated my atheism in large part because I framed it with humor. - Cuddy Joe Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:53:09 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2729 Some commenters here seem to fear that less serious pieces are preventing rigorous scientific pieces from appearing here. I doubt that this is the case, but then again, it's not a perfect world. "It's made with beer, but don't drink it!!" - tctheunbeliever Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:03:24 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2719 [quote]I use a handmade japanese green tea soap for my body[/quote] I have to inform you, Michelle, that I automatically form images in my mind of what I'm reading. :) (Actually, my son told me recently that he does not do this. He just reads the words! Is this unusual?) BJ - BillyJoe Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:20:13 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2687 I... I use a handmade japanese green tea soap (ordered directly from the guy who makes it) for my body. It looks gross (It's a mucky brown that looks like it's full of disease.) but I swear it's the best soap I ever tried... Probably stupid of me. :D I'm such a girl. But for my hair... I had to change of shampoo lately, since mine was discontinued or something. I think I stood like 10 minutes in front of the shampoo shelves staring blankly at them. I just didn't know which to pick. For curls, for no curls, for puffy hair, for no puffy hair, for silky hair... HEck, I remember years ago that Head and Shoulders was so simple. Anti-dandruff! ...but now they have a ton of types too. I... I just don't follow anymore. I picked a random shampoo... It seems to be working. - Michelle Tue, 03 Feb 2009 02:49:29 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2680 [quote] written by JeffWagg, February 02, 2009 @lsinervo: I think you missed a very important part of this piece, and that is the word "rant." etc etc[/quote] Well, I think I got Isinervo picked about right. [quote]Bosshog is funny. But Isinervo is a joke. [/quote]:D - BillyJoe Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:48:47 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2673 @lsinervo: I think you missed a very important part of this piece, and that is the word "rant." This was not intended to be an expose on the abuse of the word "natural," or to denigrate your hobby. In fact, lemon poppyseed soap sounds like a great idea. Citrus is good for cleaning, and the poppy seeds would add some grit to help remove dirt. A couple of smaller points. 1) I never said anything about coconut oil. 2) The bottle of shampoo I had said three words. Those were "The Spa" and "Bamboo." No list of ingredients, no claims of effectiveness. If bamboo extract is actually intended to straighten hair, why would they assume *I* wanted straight hair? Also, never did I say that I thought synthetic was better than natural. I don't care what the source is... what's "best" is what should be used. And we can spend a lot of time arguing the definition of best. You claim that I did sloppy research, but this is untrue: I did NO research. It was a rant, I made no claims of a non-personal nature, and there was no need for research. The article's intent was humor, and it was at least somewhat successful. Swift has changed drastically. We no longer publish once a week, and we have broadened our content to include what some would call "fluff" pieces. Some enjoy them, some do not. This little piece was never intended to be any more than the rant it was. However, as you can see we do read the comments, and will consider all suggestions. - JeffWagg Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:29:09 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2672 I do not think an argument about the superiority of natural vs. synthetic products is outside the scope of the stated purpose of the JREF forum but the clean rant was nothing of the sort. The author did not appear to even have spent 5 minutes doing simple internet research to find out what adding bamboo to a hair product was supposed to achieve before starting to channel Mr. Blackwell. If this was a personal blog I'd probably laugh and move on, but this site claims to have higher ambitions. Sloppy research on this subject taints everything else on this site. Do you want that? If this is the standard of a claim of pseudoscience, if I can show in a double blind study that adding bamboo extract to shampoo increases the straightness of hair fibre do I win a million bucks? - lsinervo Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:20:35 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2664 Hey, MSDS! Material Safety Data Sheet! Required of all shippers of chemicals on the nations's highways and of employers whose employees handle the stuff. Please note that where I work, we actually have an MSDS for water. Know what it says to do in case of spill? "Rinse with water." We have no idea how or when to stop. - Radwaste Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:23:59 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2663 If you want clean, shiny, full-bodied hair and the elimination of dandruff, just two words.... cat urine. Don't trust my word - try it and see. - Cuddy Joe Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:22:19 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2660 @BillyJoe: On reflection, I doubt the sellers of these fruit shampoos and soaps are overly concerned about how their products biodegrade (with the possible exception of Body Shop). I think their selling point is that cosmetics that are made with actual fruits and vegetables smell better than those made with synthetics. And IMHO, that's as far as it goes. Walk into a Lush shop and you get the point -- it's all about the smell. While it is true that these vendors are relying a bit on the natural=healthier myth, that point would not help them sell much product if the products themselves didn't smell better. And they do. @sibtrag: Thanks for the due diligence. As with anything else, it's the dosage that makes the poison, eh? - jimroyal Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:07:49 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2658 No, I have no such evidence and that is far from my field of inquiry. Of course there are famous examples of chemicals not found in nature being extremely long-lived, but that is anecdotal. One can make a hand-waiving evolutionary argument that, for instance, if some significant component of bamboo were not degraded then an organism which happened to develop an ability to degrade it would find itself in a nice niche with no competitors and would prosper. As for SLS itself, it is very controversial, so my simple web search came up with propaganda from both sides...the chemical industry claiming it is perfectly safe and the anti-chemical folks claiming all sorts of dire consequences of touching it. The MSDS: http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Sodium_lauryl_sulfate-9925002 is somewhat in between and portrays a chemical that is somewhat dangerous at "full strength". Also, the HERA project (whose report http://www.heraproject.com/files/3-E-04-HERA AS Env web wd.pdf looks reasonably scientific, but I have not studied it intently) said that it was readily biodegradable. - sibtrag Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:34:50 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2657 The only way this is not woo is if there is evidence that fruit shampoo is safe and effective or is as safe and effective but biodegrades better than the alternative. Are they concerned about this? Or is it just a sales gimmick based on natural is best? (I'm just asking a questions here, not making a statement) - BillyJoe Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:30:29 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2652 Thanks for the tip, sibtrag. I will keep an eye out for that ingredient. Do you have any data that suggests that plant-based cosmetic products biodegrade faster than others? - jimroyal Mon, 02 Feb 2009 07:34:33 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2650 @ jimroyal: Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is known to be a skin irritant depending on concentration & individual susceptibility. - sibtrag Mon, 02 Feb 2009 06:08:27 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2648 Save & Effective are two good attributes to seek, but hardly the complete list of requirements. I want my personal care products (and cleaning products and medicines) to be harmless once they go down the drain, where all such products end up. I believe that the emphasis on "natural" and plant-based products is a response to that concern and the realization that some chemicals used in such products may be effective during use, but cause problems after use. - sibtrag Mon, 02 Feb 2009 05:59:10 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/418-a-clean-rant.html#comment-2647 To those who think this article is frivolous/silly/etc.: Scepticism and critical thinking are very broad terms, as is woo-woo. This article is aimed primarily at a fairly narrow branch of the woo-woo: the idea that 'natural' is superior to artificial. What those non-thinkers fail to grasp is the idea that we humans are natural organisms - therefore, surely anything we make is as artificial as us; that is, not at all. Man-made is simply a synonym for natural. Of course, manufacturers have sales to make, and so this organic craze arose as simply another sales ploy to take advantage of people's wallets, and it is the same principle as the psychic assuring the distraught mother that her deceased son is happy on the 'other side'. The company that manufactures 'all natural' soaps (now with more fructose!!!) is using the same principle as Talons claiming to know the future. Or Uri and his useless spoon 'powers'. That principle is plain old ignorance, and the calculated methods employed to take advantage of it. The JREF opposes this in all possible forms. - Lee Mon, 02 Feb 2009 05:01:43 +0100