Comments for The “Psychic” Skeptic at http://www.randi.org/site , comment 1 to 17 out of 17 comments http://www.randi.org/site Sat, 25 May 2013 11:27:26 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26446 [i]"... the author did confirm his ability to mimic their abilities"[/i] If I might play devil's advocate one more time. None of us know what exact claims the aforementioned people actually make about their abilities. Even I don't even because I never asked them. - Arjan Fri, 08 Mar 2013 07:16:36 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26445 I think while inadvertently exposing them as frauds, the author did confirm his ability to mimic their abilities. Whether the intent was to outwit or self-educate, the result will not protect those in our population wanting to believe in the unknown for no scientific reason. No amount of education will sway those who choose faith over science because the result is ostracization from the herd due to a new belief system. I've questioned the beliefs of others only to discover they cringe when their faith is subjected a simple question of "we'll, how do you know for certain". 99% will not entertain a debate, favoring the conservation of brain power reserves choosing to believe in things like the aforementioned psychics for no scientific reason. The population who choose not to discuss the professed psychics abilities should not be protected from stepping into bear traps set up for financial gain. To remove them from society through education (assuming that's hypothetically possible), would be the equivalent of removing part of the food chain...we would have no intellectual nourishment The easily fooled population is an IQ litmus test for the observer and his/her abilities to test theories like the psychic scenario. Great job. - Illuminazi Fri, 08 Mar 2013 00:28:25 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26444 [i]What would they have said if I had revealed myself? "Oh! Now I see! I have been wrong this whole time!" [/i] That's the point--you have no idea how they would have responded since you did not give them the opportunity to do so. As Arjan said--that's not kosher. If this were Sylvia Brown--i agree, no holds barred. But I doubt you would say Sylvia was a "pleasant person". - Stanfr Thu, 07 Mar 2013 20:13:23 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26443 Baxter, I don't buy that reasoning. It's like asking us to believe that you really believe 'psychics' are truly the "toughest clients". If they truly believe in their abilities, then they probably are the easiest clients to convince--they're readily accepting of your own abilities since they believe in their own. Denver's proper analogy would be sending in a fake mechanic to an auto shop, doing some work on their car and asking how they performed. What does the owner/mechanic's evaluation of the fake's claimed abilities have to do with his own abilities? Nothing! It's not 'consumer protection' and it certainly isn't good science. Sounds to me like you're rationalizing to me. If you thought they were pleasant people it's odd that this story makes them look like fools. - Stanfr Thu, 07 Mar 2013 20:07:39 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26442 Well in any case, I suppose that you have at least given them the opportunity to know what was going on by publishing it. Seriously though, it is hard to find a cold reading subject who will tell you when you are wrong. If the person likes you they will want you to succeed. - Arjan Thu, 07 Mar 2013 19:47:59 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26441 Arjan states more than once that I should have told the truth to Connie and I was a bad person for not doing so. However, when she possibly lies to me to "make me feel better" it is because she is nice. Would it have been better if I had just charged her a fee? Look, my intention was to educate myself about cold reading - not educate them. What would they have said if I had revealed myself? "Oh! Now I see! I have been wrong this whole time!" Not only was my experiment not to prove that they are frauds, it was also not to convince them of anything. Nowhere did I test their abilities and try to expose anything about their claimed skills. They have their beliefs and I wasn't going to change them. I found them both to be pleasant people and I truly hope that Connie sells lots of her wares in that store. I hope that Tim gets his band going so I can go listen. All I did was test my own ability at doing a first time cold reading. I showed that anyone can be fooled if we are not expecting it. It makes us human. - Baxter Thu, 07 Mar 2013 19:37:18 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26440 Interesting point. Although this was being done for research purposes. As such, it violated current ethical standards for social research such as voluntary participation, informed consent and confidentiality. - Arjan Thu, 07 Mar 2013 19:02:14 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26439 From the spirit wise web site, it looks to me like they charge for their 'readings'. So this effort seems quite different from experimenting on a believer: it was testing the efficacy of a product offering. If someone offering "readings" for money cannot tell the difference between a real psychic and a fake one, how can they tell if they themselves are real or fake? This is very common consumer protection strategy: like taking a car into a clinic with known mechanical problems, and seeing what the mechanics actually diagnose. No one seems to consider that unethical, regardless of whether or not the test is revealed to the mechanics who failed. As long as the results are revealed to their customers, it seems a worthwhile effort. - denver Thu, 07 Mar 2013 18:35:31 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26438 So...a fake psychic skeptic cons a real but fake psychic by being falsely psychic, who then in turn cons the skeptic by not being skeptical (kind of a double-agent psychic skeptic). My head is spinning... :o - Stanfr Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:29:44 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26437 I can attest that the jewelry she sells is not intended to do any more than compliment one's outfit. Something else to consider, It can be hard to know if you are a good cold reader because most people are too polite to tell you when you are wrong. For example, I happen to know that the statements Matthew made about her mother were dead wrong. She is too nice to tell him that however. So she just let him believe he was correct so he could feel good about himself. - Arjan Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:04:31 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26436 I agree with you that ridicule does not help, Arjan, and that believing does not leave you open to public mockery. Generally speaking, I tend to think that you can believe what you want in so far as it does not impact anyone else - for example, as a parent, you can go right ahead and believe in homeopathy, but you'd best be taking your child down to the doctor for scientifically proven medical treatment. Similarly, Tim and Connie selling jewellery and the like is fine, but if they are selling it with the promise of some sort of spiritual reward/value, then that's a problem. They become not just believers, but charlatans. - Mitchell Meek Thu, 07 Mar 2013 16:46:51 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26435 I'm all for investigating supernatural claims. The problem is that it appears that this experiment was conducted in an unethical manner. If they were informed of the truth afterwards, and gave consent to have the story published, then I will stand corrected. It seems that we tend to slip into ridiculing those who believe in the supernatural. This doesn't help anyone. I made the above post to suggest that we put people over principles. The fact that someone believes in the supernatural does not make them "fair game" for public mockery. - Arjan Thu, 07 Mar 2013 16:24:04 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26434 Hi Arjan, I don't think the article was commenting at all on the quality of Connie and Tim as people, and being that you know them, we can take you at your word that they are lovely, kind people. The point was to expose the effectiveness of conducting a cold reading as a means of fooling believers/those willing to believe. Connie and Tim believed that a medium could contact their deceased loved ones, and with a few simple observations, Tim was able to convince them he was communicating with the dead. It's just an exercise in debunking a supernatural claim. - Mitchell Meek Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:29:31 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26433 Along the lines of what Arjan just said, the end of the story is missing here. Were they told the truth after these readings? If they were, that's a good learning opportunity for them and should be highlighted as the most important lesson of this article. If they weren't, it was downright mean and no better than the psychics we complain about on this site. I hope they gave permission to have their names used here. - Stanfr Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:23:50 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26432 This may be off topic, but I feel the need to interject this. I've known Connie and Tim for several years. Connie started with nothing many years ago and built up a successful chain of shoe shine stands around Denver. She eventually sold that business to buy Spirit Wise Gifts. While it is considered a "metaphysical store", they mainly sell jewelry, clothing and gift items. They do believe in some unusual things, but those beliefs are only one aspect of their personalities. They are also kind, generous and trusting people who go out of their way to help others. Connie and Tim have never claimed to be "mind readers". It is unfortunate that Mathew felt the need to lie to them about who he was and what his intentions were. - Arjan Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:30:09 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26431 That last line made me spit coffee on my computer screen. Hilarious! - SheldonHelms Thu, 07 Mar 2013 12:28:20 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/2040-the-psychic-skeptic.html#comment-26428 Hi, For any one not aware, the book "The Full Facts book of Cold Reading" from Ian Rowland is a really good read. Even I too can become an effective sigh-kick.... Oh? You knew I was going to say that? ;-) - Joni Thu, 07 Mar 2013 05:17:35 +0100