Comments for Canada Officially Goes Woo-Woo at http://www.randi.org/site , comment 1 to 24 out of 20 comments http://www.randi.org/site Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:07:07 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-485 I certainly didn't vote for Harper. Personally, I'd like to see the return of the Rhino Party. Then I wouldn't have to vote NDP all the time (although, I suppose I could have voted Green...). - Arts Myth Tue, 02 Dec 2008 10:26:00 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-433 The fact is that Goodyear is a nutcase and so is Dalai Lama. So the picture is apt. A picture of Sharon Begley and the Dalai Lama may not be (I don't lknow enough about her to know). - BillyJoe Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:39:10 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-429 I take it the picture of Goodyear and the Dalai Lama is meant as proof of woowooness. Perhaps JREF should reconsider one of it's featured books, i.e. Begley - Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain. Here's a picture of Sharon Begley and the Dalai Lama: [url]http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/web/News/wsj_1-19-07_begley.html[/url] He even wrote a foreword for one of her books. Therefore she must be a woowoo ;) - emonk Sun, 30 Nov 2008 00:26:13 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-412 I agree that "coincidental" is a better word for it. - NoDeity Sat, 29 Nov 2008 04:31:23 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-405 @NoDeity Perhaps you mean "coincidental" not "accidental"? - Diverted Chrome Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:54:55 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-394 "If the theory is wrong, how can the practice be beneficial, except by accident?" That chiropractic manipulation can do some good could very well be accidental. It's surely unrelated to chiropractic theory. For all I know, maybe someone noticed that joint manipulation seems to provide relief in some circumstances and the theory was an [i]ad hoc[/i] attempt to explain that. - NoDeity Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:40:28 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-392 @NoDeity: If the theory is wrong, how can the practice be beneficial, except by accident? - osmosis Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:24:18 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-387 Regarding chiropractic, I think we can differentiate somewhat between the practise and the theory. The theory is quite obviously quackery. The practise, though, can be beneficial for certain conditions. A homoeopath is giving you something that doesn't actually act on your body in any way (unless, perhaps you're very dehydrated ;)) and, so, can be written off as useless and mostly harmless but a chiropractor is doing something that can directly and significantly affect your musculoskeletal system. So, a chiropractor can potentially benefit or harm a patient (don't let 'em get near your neck). - NoDeity Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:07:18 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-385 Before you accept the positive results of a trial of acupuncture, you should remember three things: 1) The control group was probably inappropriate There is actually no longer any excuse for this. There are only two contols appropriate for a trial of acupuncuture: - using the wrong acupuncture points - using a sham acupuncture needle (the needle retracts) The second is better because neither the patients nor the acupuncturists can tell the difference between a true and sham acupuncture needle and, therefore, there is double blinding. 2) The result was positive by chance alone. Most trials use a p velue of 0.05, which means 1 in 20 tials will be positive by pure chance. A meta-anlysis of all trials of acupuncture using appropriate controls will therefore show about 1 in 20 as having a positive effect. If there is publication bias (some trials showing a negative result are never published), this ratio can be greater. Finally remember this: 3) The evidence must actually be [b]extraordinary[/b] Acupuncture has almost zero scientific plausibility. In other words, there is no kown physical mechanisms by which it could possibly work. There are no meridians. There is nothing physical that corresponds to acupuncture points. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of Chi. Therefore the evidence from clinical trials must actually be [b]extraordinary[/b] If you doubt this last claim, think about what sort of evidence you would need if someone told you they saw an F111 aircraft compared to the evidence you would need if they told you they saw an alien spaceship. regards, BillyJoe - BillyJoe Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:42:59 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-371 @ Furgy: Ministers are usually appointed in this way. We rarely have an ex-military man as Defense Minister, for example. A cabinet post is purely a political appointment, with no oversight as to the choice. - rallymodeller Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:16:50 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-369 Lucky that here in Canada the minister in charge of a specific department, especially a "fuzzy" one like SciTech, has no real power or say. The real power in any particular ministry comes from the deputy ministers, career civil servants who stay in the same post often through many successive governments. Goodyear will only last in his post until either the government is voted down in a No Confidence vote (could be as soon as the new budget next week) or there is a cabinet reshuffle. - rallymodeller Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:11:48 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-352 Why does this not surprise me. To not appoint a man with a science background is absolutely absurd, It would be like appointing a Gardener to be CEO of an Auto company, it just doesn't fit. And to say Science is not important is just as absurd.Science is the main vehicle for providing evolutionary history for our planet and universe, and it amazing to me how some governments try to lessen Science's impact. - furgy Thu, 27 Nov 2008 13:03:23 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-343 It`s unbelievable!!! What`s going on in Canada...???!!! Strange...!!! - alexthemagician Thu, 27 Nov 2008 01:02:54 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-310 I hope I'm not the only Canadian who has emailed the PM (pm@pm.gc.ca) to let him know that this article speaks their mind. Maybe if enough people email, he will actually read it. Don't forget to mention that you pay taxes and you vote. - osmosis Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:38:53 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-303 Don't blame all of us. The Conservatives have a minority government. If they try anything stupid, their regime will be voted out of existence. - donjunbar Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:47:54 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-294 Beging Canadian I would love to claim that we're a rational people, but this would be dishonest. Canada is not the first nation to promote someone with inadequate skill and knowledge to a position of power. I believe the US has an 8-year case-study just wrapping up..... Anyway, as the saying goes, it seems that Mr. Goodyear has been promoted to the level of his incompetence.... - grochon Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:46:38 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-292 It is my understanding that it has been demonstrated that acupuncture can provide temporary pain relief. That it doesn't matter whether or not you place the needles according to the "meridians" has also been demonstrated. That is, although the theory is nonsense, the practise may be of some use for reasons unrelated to the theory. Mild electrical stimulation provides similar relief, without the potentially dangerous insertion of needles. That chiropractic manipulation can relieve lower back pain has been demonstrated -- for reasons unrelated to chiropractic theory which, of course, is pure nonsense. A good physiotherapist can give you the same treatment, without the woo-woo baggage that encumbers chiropractors. I understand, though, that chiropractic organizations are trying to prevent non-chiropractors from being permitted to perform such joint manipulations. - NoDeity Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:39:14 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-291 Sumdod There is no question that acupuncture is one of the more effective placebos (maybe it is all those needles). For this reason, to assess whether anything beyond placebo is happening, the control group have to have a similar kind of treatment (giving a pill will not do). In recent years a variety of ways have been created to do this. One is to use needles but put them "non-acupunture" points. More recently they have developed some very clever needles that stick to the skin, so there is some sensation, but the patient really is not sure whether the needles are going in or not. You often get the occasional positive study - but the trick of science is replication - it must be possible to replicate a study and get similar results. Many studies are badly designed. According to an interesting book called Trick or Treatment, written by an honest doctor who was also a homeopath, if you do a meta-analysis you get very little more than the placebo effect. On the other hand placebo is real, so if you know someone with Fibromyalgia, they could give it a go and expect to feel an improvement, though there is nothing to suggest there would be any reversal of the condition. Risks (including needle infection) and cost/benefit have to be considered. - sailor Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:27:30 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-287 The Mayo study is worthless if its not properly controlled, that means testing if accupuncture works, not just testing if distraction, suggestion and the placebo effect relieve a sympton that is very subjective, like an individuals level of pain. http://www.webmd.com/fibromyalgia/news/20050705/study-acupuncture-no-help-for-fibromyalgia - David P Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:13:58 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/309-canada-officially-goes-woo-woo.html#comment-286 This just blows me away. I mean, Canada's always seemed to be a rational-type country. Who voted these guys in, anyway? mac :] - macbrooks Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:03:50 +0100