Comments for No Vaccine Against Greed at http://www.randi.org/site , comment 1 to 40 out of 20 comments http://www.randi.org/site Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:26:56 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-12277 This versatile styling tool has an ergonomic design and curved edge plates to create any style from straight to curly and everything in between. With a flash heating element and fixed temperature setting, the power to create the style of your dreams is your hands. [url=http://www.newshopstyle.co.uk]GHD[/url] [url=http://www.newshopstyle.co.uk]GHD IV Styler[/url] - newshopstyle Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:02:05 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11228 Here's a few examples. Vaccination rates continue to be overall high in the U.S. -but there are pockets in areas of the country where 'like-minded' persons tend to cluster and there have been outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases. Parental Refusal of Pertussis Vaccination Is Associated With an Increased Risk of Pertussis Infection in Children Jason M. Glanz, PhDa,b, David L. McClure, PhDa, David J. Magid, MD, MPHa,b, Matthew F. Daley, MDa,c,d, Eric K. France, MD, MSPHe, Daniel A. Salmon, PhD, MPHf and Simon J. Hambidge, MD, PhDa,b,d,g a Institute for Health Research e Department of Prevention, Kaiser Permanente Colorado, Denver, Colorado; Departments of b Preventive Medicine and Biometrics d Pediatrics, University of Colorado, Denver, Colorado c Department of Pediatrics, Children's Hospital, Denver, Colorado f Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland g Community Health Services, Denver Health, Denver, Colorado OBJECTIVE. The objective of this study was to determine if children who contracted pertussis infection were more likely to have parents who refused pertussis vaccinations than a similar group of children who did not develop pertussis infection. METHODS. We conducted a case-control study of children enrolled in the Kaiser Permanente of Colorado health plan between 1996 and 2007. Each pertussis case was matched to 4 randomly selected controls. Pertussis case status and vaccination status were ascertained by medical chart review. RESULTS. We identified 156 laboratory-confirmed pertussis cases and 595 matched controls. There were 18 (12%) pertussis vaccine refusers among the cases and 3 (0.5%) pertussis vaccine refusers among the controls. Children of parents who refused pertussis immunizations were at an increased risk for pertussis compared with children of parents who accepted vaccinations. In a secondary case-control analysis of children continuously enrolled in Kaiser Permanente of Colorado from 2 to 20 months of age, vaccine refusal was associated with a similarly increased risk of pertussis. In the entire Kaiser Permanente of Colorado pediatric population, 11% of all pertussis cases were attributed to parental vaccine refusal. CONCLUSIONS. Children of parents who refuse pertussis immunizations are at high risk for pertussis infection relative to vaccinated children. Herd immunity does not seem to completely protect unvaccinated children from pertussis. These findings stress the need to further understand why parents refuse immunizations and to develop strategies for conveying the risks and benefits of immunizations to parents more effectively. Measles outbreaks from the CDC- almost all due to parental vaccine refusal: [url]http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5733a1.htm[/url] and from the same article: [quote]In June 2008, the United Kingdom's Health Protection Agency declared that, because of a drop in vaccination coverage levels (to 80%--85% among children aged 2 years), measles was again endemic in the United Kingdom (3,8), 14 years after it had been eliminated[/quote] - KidDoc Thu, 01 Oct 2009 13:16:32 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11221 I'm not chastizing you but wondering where you want to go with your 'we need hard data' argument. For instance, let's make up a situation that is analogous to this one. We have a group of people who are claiming that wearing seatbelts while driving in your vehicles can, being a bit facetious, cause spinal chord injuries and it is better not to wear seatbelts. Do we *really* need to let this stupid idea propagate to allow studies and data that show that not wearing seatbelts results in more deaths and worse injuries? It is obvious and there is already data to support the usefulness of seatbelts in reducing injuries and deaths. On the other hand, there is real study going on concerning airbags in vehicles. While they are even more effective at injury/death reduction, under some circumstances they can also induce injury/death (in children). Still, I'd take precautions, even with small chances of dangerous side-effects, over nothing at all. While anti-vaxers might not be having a major impact on infection rates, it is guaranteed that if this trend were to increase, infection rates would increase. When I have the time, I'll look around for hard data where anti-vax agenda has caused infection rate increases in certain areas. Mind you, their impact is currently limited and the data will probably be for small regions. - Kuroyume Thu, 01 Oct 2009 08:54:23 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11212 Thanks for acknowledging that I have a point, however faint the praise :) As far as tone, I only follow the example of our fearless leader, James Randi. As far as criticism goes, I like to think I can take it as well as dish it out. I'm well aware that if I fire the first shot I'm likely to recieve a volley in return. - Griz Thu, 01 Oct 2009 06:19:22 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11211 Your first rant is anecdotal, especially since there's no way we're ever going to see an end to all the medical misinformation out there. However, the link you provided is very good and actually the very first hard evidence I have seen to date that indicates that there is any tendancy that vaccination coverage has dropped. It's also good because it mentions that the rate differs by area. Although we can't know for sure what the reasons are, you can make a good case by the discussion of the school vaccination waivers that it's people who have been swayed by some anti vaccination rhetoric. This is a good place to start examining the REAL issue here. The coverage rates dropped as much as two percentage points in some areas. The article went on to say that annual measles cases were around 62 cases annually and that in 2008 between 1/1 and 4/25 there were 64 cases. Now, that highlights a potential problem, and one that needs to be fought against...BUT... It is NOT an infant genocide! It is not a mounting death toll. I'm being chastised for my tone. Okay, I hear that. Believe it or not, it's not the first time I've been accused of being abrasive and confrontational :) But where's the chastisement for the tone of the people using the innaccurate and inflammatory statements? Where's the chastisement for those who presenting statements as fact which are not only unsupported but deomnstrably untrue? If this was 4chan or Fark.com or some other internet gathering place of general rabble I'd just sit back and laugh, but this is the JREF. Those of us that frequent this place make an avocation out of demanding evidence. It just frustrates the living hell out of me that so many people here deride others for their unsupported beliefs and then turn around and say things like "infant genocide" which is nothing but an unsupported belief, and then they get all pissy when I call them on it and make these emotional posts of twisted logic and rationalization because they got caught. - Griz Thu, 01 Oct 2009 06:10:30 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11210 When I try and try and try to restate my argument here in different ways over, what, six or eight threads now, and I have the same people (you) failing to understand my point, I begin to conclude that the failure is not with me. - Griz Thu, 01 Oct 2009 05:51:07 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11191 Jeff: please, please, oh please stop making stupid Nazi comparisons. Godwin's law states that the first person to make a Nazi comparison loses the argument - and indeed, you write a very good argument, with which I agree completely, and then you ridicule it by childish and stupid comparisons with "Arbeit macht frei". I fear our side will lose credibility with such stupid statements. Did I mention Nazi comparisons are stupid? - bgw Thu, 01 Oct 2009 02:38:46 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11189 "but in all seriousness who cares about tone" Anyone who wants to seriously persuade other people I would hope. Like it or not, tone has a huge impact on how seriously your views will be taken by other people, forgoing its use just means you're giving away an effective tool to woo types. Its just the way we're built. Otara - Otara Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:21:16 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11188 Here is what misinformation does: [url=http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/288/5469/1171]http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/288/5469/1171[/url] We are all too familiar with the religious and other influences keeping proper medicinal and preventative measures from allowing HIV/AIDS to propagate in Africa (as read right here at the JREF site). Letting things run their course isn't a viable option - it is laissez-faire and presumptuous. The data is already in - vaccination works. Anti-vaxers should not be allowed to spread misinformation that 'may' (and WILL) lead to outbreaks, epidemics, and deaths. This isn't emotional rhetoric - it is fact! - Kuroyume Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:28:31 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11187 What is Griz's point though? That vaccinations haven't done what they do? That people who don't vaccinate are imperiling others isn't guaranteed to promulgate disease propagation? I don't get the gist of the argument. It is PROVEN that vaccinations work and that without them, epidemics and plagues occur. Anti-vaxers want people to stop getting vaccinated (on extremely shaky premises). The more people they recruit into this philosophy, the further we slip back in time with respect to the suppression of epidemics and plagues. If that isn't clear, then Griz needs to read up a lot on historical facts. The only way to get the 'data' that Griz wants is to allow this idiocy to continue to spread to see where the facts lead. That is a bad course - and one that is more than sufficiently backed up by the data gathered to date. - Kuroyume Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:18:11 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11186 Mostly to the people voting down Griz's comment, but in all seriousness who cares about tone? We're not worried about being nice to the anti-vaxers when they're wrong, why are we worried about being so nice to one another? Griz did exactly what we're always asking people to do, present a clear argument supported by legitimate references... and we get on their case because they weren't nice about it? How sensitive are we? - twoyboy Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:04:56 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11185 I hope you are not commenting at me. I said he had a point, just that he might be better received if he used another tone. - Kay-the-fish Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:27:24 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11184 Is anyone actually reading Griz's comments? Griz is not anti-vax, but simply saying using misinformation like "Kids are dying today from diseases they were protected against years ago when vaccination was more common." isn't doing the argument any favours. Griz has also provided cold, hard facts (from the WHO no less) to support their argument. Seriously, just because you don't like his or her tone, there's no reason to vote down Griz's comments or argue against them. For goodness sake people, try not to be so damned knee-jerk... - twoyboy Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:21:49 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11183 In this, and in other threads, you have made a point. It almost seems like hairsplitting at times, but I understand the need to be accurate. Despite that, I have trouble receiving your comments without a kneejerk dislike. I think your points would have more power without the finger-pointing (at Jeff especially) and, for lack of a better word, drama. A more diplomatic approach may be useful. Simply stating the way you see it may be enough to open some readers' eyes, even if you don't get your point to your intended target. - Kay-the-fish Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:46:06 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11182 Yes. That is what I did. I delayed. I wouldn't let the doctors give all the injections due on one day. That last link you offered is very interesting and I look forward to reading all of it tonight. Do you know of any links on why the schedule requires 5 DTaP (6 by adolescence)? Are these numbers based on human trials? Why does it take so many doses for the immune system to really "get it"? - Kay-the-fish Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:38:40 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11181 Here's another article for the unconvinced [url]http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/360/19/1981[/url] - KidDoc Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:55:55 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11180 Are you serious Griz? Come sit in my office and watch while I spend at least an hour a day discussing idiots like the one this article highlighted and try to reassure parents that there is actually a SCIENTIFIC REASON why we vaccinate on a certain schedule. That CDC article actually highlighted the biggest issue we deal with and that is people delaying vaccines due to fears propagated by the anti-vaccination camp. The parents believe there is some credibility to their propaganda so they "split the difference". - KidDoc Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:10:04 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11177 ...is probably that he's lying. Occam's razor rules. - Griz Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:48:35 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11176 From the link you posted: "Traditionally, the government has measured immunization noncompliance by tallying up only missed doses of a vaccine. In this new research, the CDC recalculated immunization compliance to include vaccine lapses in addition to missed doses. Based on these new criteria, the CDC found that immunization compliance was actually 9 percentage points lower than previous estimates, dropping the compliance rate from 81 percent to 72 percent." Vaccination rates didn't drop, the way they count them has changed. They have discovered a potential problem which is not new but previoiusly unknown. This has what to do with the anti-vaccination people? - Griz Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:46:00 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/724-no-vaccine-against-greed.html#comment-11175 Infant genocide? Shame on you. Folks around here demand HARD evidence to support beliefs unless it's something they want to believe in. I just showed you hard evidence that vaccination rates have not dropped, nor has incidence of the diseases risen. You ignore this (doubt you even looked at it) and imply that I'm in favor of infant genocide. Way to be rational. OMFG, children, CHILDREN are dying! Let's just promote vaccination without the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It really isn't helpful. - Griz Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:42:44 +0100