Comments for Review: The Ghost Map at http://www.randi.org/site , comment 1 to 20 out of 20 comments http://www.randi.org/site Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:41:56 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-8012 [quote]written by BillyJoe, July 04, 2009 ...An appendix was usefull at some stage,, now it no longer is useful and it can be the cause disease or even death. It should them be cut out. [/quote] I would venture to say that an appendix is more useful to a Human being than a belief in a supernatural being. I'd bet that more people died from that screwy idea that those who succumbed to appendicitis. ;) - Willy K Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:26:34 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7965 [quote]My point is that what is sold as "religion" is not integral to Human behavior.[/quote]That was not clear form your original post. But, if you are saying that religion is not the basis of ethical behaviour, I wouldagree. Yes, it seems to be the case that altruism was "invented" by evolution to improve survival. Religion merely developed as a consequence of that, possibly first as an adaption but certainly later as a maladaption. An appendix was usefull at some stage, now it no longer is useful and it can be the cause disease or even death. It should them be cut out. BJ - BillyJoe Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:35:58 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7957 [quote]written by BillyJoe, July 03, 2009 - Many religious people cannot shed their religion. It is, in fact, an integral part of who they are.[/quote] That's certainly true.... many schizophrenics can't shed their schizophrenia! My point is that what is sold as "religion" is not integral to Human behavior. Delusion is a common property among Humans that other Humans will drape fairy tales over. Many people try to force their delusions on others. That's what many of the JREF articles are about! - Willy K Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:56:52 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7956 [quote]written by GeekGoddess, July 03, 2009 - What they feel about their religion may guide specific actions to, for instance, feed the hungry rather than be snarky and rude to total strangers on the Internet.[/quote] Feeding the hungry is part of basic Human altruism. It wasn't invented by any religion, it was already there. There are many very wonderful people doing wonderful things, if they learned how to be wonderful, they learned if from another wonderful person. - Willy K Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:46:23 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7947 @Machpoint005: The book does cover the decision and the efforts involved in building the sewage system as well as a city-wide clean water distribution system, albeit in brief. Additionally, contributions of other individuals is covered. Rev. Whitehead's interest in helping solve the problems of the cholera epidemic within his vicarage came from his intimate knowledge and his concern for the people of the Golden Square and area surrounding Broad Street. Religion is not always a 'social covering' but for some people informs their actions. What they feel about their religion may guide specific actions to, for instance, feed the hungry rather than be snarky and rude to total strangers on the Internet. - GeekGoddess Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:58:34 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7937 [quote]I hate to split hairs with you ole Grizzie, but religion never "works" to benefit anyone.[/quote]Not sure what you mean by "works", but religion certainly does benefit certain people. My father for example. He was a good man whom everyone liked without exception. He was a war survivor, though, and it was clear his religion was a great solace for him. I never bothered him about irrationality of his religion because of that. [quote]A persons character is basic, any "religion" they have is just a bit of social covering that can be dispensed with at will.[/quote] Again, I think you overstate your case. Many religious people cannot shed their religion. It is, in fact, an integral part of who they are. In some cases, it is even true to say that their religion made them who they are. BillyJoe - BillyJoe Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:17:41 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7930 And who is it that corrects scientists when they are wrong? That's right, other scientists! (as in people who follow the evidence) There's another inconvenient truth for homeopaths. - tctheunbeliever Fri, 03 Jul 2009 08:02:08 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7926 [quote]Griz said... religion working with science to benefit people. Rev. Whitehead was clearly a progressive thinker...[/quote] I hate to split hairs with you ole Grizzie, but religion never "works" to benefit anyone. Your observation about Rev. Whitehead is the correct part of that statement. A persons character is basic, any "religion" they have is just a bit of social covering that can be dispensed with at will. How many "believers" in the Abrahamic Bible ignore that commandment "thou shalt not kill" whenever they deem it necessary? :'( - Willy K Fri, 03 Jul 2009 07:26:16 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7924 One factor about these kind of discoveries that seems to be under reported is what do the vocal disbelievers (disbelievers in science that is) have to say after something is proven scientifically. Where are the mea culpas??? Will Jenny McCarthy ever admit she is totally wrong? I doubt she would have the courage to say so. :'( - Willy K Fri, 03 Jul 2009 07:17:34 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7923 Always interests me that Dr Snow gets most, if not all, of the credit, but Joseph Bazagette was the one who saved countless lives by engineering an effective sewerage system for London. It was so effective it is still in use today. - Machpoint005 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 07:12:40 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7904 BillyJoe, [quote]I think sibtrag agrees with you. He just chose different words to describe the same thing. BTW, you left Chiropactic out of your list ;)[/quote] It could be that we agree. The term stolen suggests the appeal to emotion that is so common among the unicorn medicine mob. I apologize for omitting chiropractic. I have been reading so much about them and their bogus criticism of Simon Singh, that I overlooked it just from being too familiar. I am sure I missed a lot of unmedicine. For example, the magical mystery herbs that Daniel Hauser prefers to chemotherapy. The chemotherapy is keeping him alive with a good prognosis for healthy survival, but why let facts get in the way of a good emotional appeal, some smoke, mirrors, and media whores. :( - Rogue Medic Thu, 02 Jul 2009 11:55:12 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7903 Rogue Medic, I think sibtrag agrees with you. He just chose different words to describe the same thing. BTW, you left Chiropactic out of your list ;) BJ - BillyJoe Thu, 02 Jul 2009 11:23:33 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7901 @sibtrag, [quote]I was intending the latter...that what is now called "alternative medicine" is mostly what is left after the scientists have stolen all the good stuff to be part of "mainstream medicine". [/quote] [i]the scientists have stolen all the good stuff?[/i] That would suggest that there is no [i]good stuff[/i] left that is available to people. That would suggest that scientists have taken the [i]good stuff[/i] away from the people. This is nonsense. What scientists have done is confirmed that some treatments do work. Those treatments are now [b]accepted[/b] by science and conventional medicine, because they have been shown to work. This is not stealing. This is one of the problems of unicorn medicine, there is no objectivity. Things are [i]attacked[/i], or [i]stolen[/i], or described in some other emotional way. Science is about finding out the truth. Unicorn medicine is about ignoring the truth. There may be alternative medicine treatments that actually work, but they are not the stuff that has been well studied. Look at the results of NCCAM. [s]Dr.[/s] Sen. Tom Harkin is criticizing the center for not doing as it was told - for not validating unicorn medicine. He does not see scientific validation of a treatment as [i]stealing[/i]. [url]http://roguemedic.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-to-be-part-of-healthcare-workforce.html[/url] The only treatments likely to be [i]validated[/i] by science, or shown to be effective, are the ones not yet studied. These are most likely the ones practiced by small numbers of people, who do not have much contact with the rest of the world. In other words: Not reiki, Not acupuncture, Not naturopathy, Not homeopathy, Not anything you will find in your local community. Richard Dawkins describes alternative medicine as a [i]set of practices which cannot be tested, refuse to be tested, or consistently fail tests.[/i] Alternative medicine is fraudulent medicine. It is medicine as practiced by quacks. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch[/url] - Rogue Medic Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:49:33 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7899 I was going to observe that the "unicorn" medicine folks (I love that epithet, Rogue Medic) would take this to demonstrate that some valid scientific ideas are derided when they first come to light and therefore all ideas, no matter how crackpot are worth investigation, but Sibtrag has beaten me to the punch. What the unicorns never want to do, though, that Dr. Snow did, is do the work to prove their concept. In fact, it's not in their best interests to do so because their ideas can only be proven wrong, so they don't fight, they just flit from scam to scam when the heat of scientific light gets too much for them. That's why there will never be a John Snow for "alternative" medicine, and that's why what John Snow proposed was NOT alternative medicine. It was medicine, pure and simple, provable by scientific method and upheld by later research. It also exemplifies another thing we don't seem to see much any more: religion working with science to benefit people. Rev. Whitehead was clearly a progressive thinker and not hung up on sticking with the church sanctioned idea of the cause of the disease or the even handier refuge of simply chalking the deaths up to god's judgement. - Griz Thu, 02 Jul 2009 08:28:26 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7898 @Sadhatter: I was intending the latter...that what is now called "alternative medicine" is mostly what is left after the scientists have stolen all the good stuff to be part of "mainstream medicine". - sibtrag Thu, 02 Jul 2009 07:03:12 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7897 Could you provide what you mean by "However, this process leaves "alternative medicine" mostly a mix of studied and rejected ideas." It kind of sounds like you could be saying good ideas and known bad ideas in a grab bag. Or you could be saying that it is made up of ideas that have already been studied and rejected. Probably just the fact that i just got up and i don't understand, and no offense intended by this post, i just didn't want to get the wrong impression from your statement. - Sadhatter Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:40:13 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7894 To be fair, miasmists too were a link in the long chain of science: 'if it stinks it's probably bad' was (and remains) pretty good advice. The error was believing the corollary 'if it don't stink it's probably OK' which holds good only some of the time. - pxatkins Thu, 02 Jul 2009 05:42:39 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7893 I haven't read the book, but from Naomi Baker's retelling, I see a few interesting patterns. The first is an idea that is openly scoffed at by scientists eventually becoming accepted as truth. Not everything scoffed at by scientists is untrue. This applies to today's issues as well. But, of course, the scoffing of scientists does not necessarily indicate truth. We also see "alternative medicine" becoming "mainstream medicine" once it is taken seriously by scientists & studied. A significant number of today's mainstream medicine techniques and substances were originally folk remedies. (Even vaccination has roots in folk wisdom that those who got cow pox would not get small pox.) However, this process leaves "alternative medicine" mostly a mix of studied and rejected ideas. Which is why some scientists are scrambling to learn folk medicine in remote areas in hopes of finding some untested idea that turns out true. And, finally, we see a religious character having a positive impact on science. In part because of how well he knows his parishioners' character and constitution well enough to see there is no correlation. - sibtrag Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:53:06 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7888 "The Sewer King" an episode of the BBC's series "Seven Wonders of the Industrial World" gives an account fo the John Snow incident as well as the building of the sewer. BJ - BillyJoe Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:12:56 +0100 http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/620-review-the-ghost-map.html#comment-7887 At the end of the book, he points out that our best defense against biological terrorism will come from improving our knowledge of science. Rejecting the anti-science that is rampant in so many places. Will unicorn medicine protect us from a Ted Kaczynski with a biological weapon? No. Only improvements in science will do that. Will unicorn medicine protect us from a Timothy McVeigh with a biological weapon? No. Only improvements in science will do that. Will unicorn medicine protect us from a bin Laden acolyte with a biological weapon? No. Only improvements in science will do that. This is a book about both history and the future. We can repeat the mistakes of the miasmists and help future terrorists to kill millions. Or we can improve our focus on the science that will protect us. Early identification of diseases. Vaccination. Improved research. Improved communication. Improved coordination. - Rogue Medic Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:48:43 +0100