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PZ Myers, Pamela Gay, and atheistic skeptic organizations PDF Print E-mail
Swift
Written by D.J. Grothe   
Tuesday, 29 June 2010 06:53

I love PZ Myers and his blog Pharyngula — a mix of science education and social commentary from an atheistic perspective — way more than some of my more temperate and low-key friends would approve. He is for me what I imagine Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck is for fiscal, religious or cultural conservatives. Except that PZ is reasonable and on the right side of the issues, unlike Limbaugh and Beck. (Of course, fans of Limbaugh or Beck must think the same thing of them.) PZ Myers is one of the two or three best polemicists that people of my worldview have to rally around. I cheer when he sticks it to my cultural competitors. I enjoy reading his uncompromising stance. I like that he is direct and funny and pulls no punches, and convince myself sometimes that this might allow other skeptics and atheists to take different, more diplomatic approaches when addressing religious or paranormal beliefs.

 

That others take different approaches is something PZ doesn't seem to like.

 

I invited Pamela Gay, the popular astronomy podcaster and public science educator, to be a speaker at the Amazing Meeting 8 this year. She is one of a number of theist skeptics on the program, despite some hullabaloo that the Amazing Meeting has been turned into an atheist conference (I guess this is because both Randi and I might be considered raging atheists; at least no one is yet wringing their hands that it has been turned into a gay conference).

 

I really like Pamela Gay, and enjoy her company. I appreciate her great work in science education and science popularization, and consider her a fellow skeptic, an ally in the fight to advance critical thinking in the world. I have lectured on critical thinking and legerdemain for a college class she teaches. I have seen her inspire and charm at Dragon*Con.

 

That she is a theist of some sort is beside the point for me. And PZ seems to agree. He calls her a "credible skeptic," even if other bloggers may not think so. In a recent blog post titled "Should skeptic organizations be atheist organizations?," PZ lists "eminently reasonable rationales for not pressuring skeptical organizations to join ranks with and become inseparable from atheist groups." He also lists what he thinks are some bad reasons that skeptic organizations shouldn't be identical to atheist organizations, like the desire not to offend religious folks who are allies in advancing skepticism and critical thinking, as long as it doesn't undermine theism. Because he doesn't see the need for skeptics organizations to become atheist organization, he doesn't seem to object to Pamela Gay being included in the pantheon of skeptics.

 

Unlike some skeptic-atheists out there, I do not believe that skepticism is a subset of atheism. I believe, and I wonder why it isn't obvious to everyone, that atheism is a subset of skepticism. Skepticism, among other things, is simply a method of inquiry, an approach to knowledge claims. I have recently argued in a speech what skepticism is and what it is not. Over the years, I have met many avowed atheists whom I would not consider to be credible skeptics, who are not very skeptical of the sorts of claims James Randi would call "woo woo." Sure, they lack belief in God, but believe in the New Age, or the power of crystals, or other paranormal or supernatural folderol. Yes, many skeptics are atheists and vise versa. But atheism is skepticism about only one sort of supernatural claim, the God claim. And in my view, atheism is not enough to make you a credible skeptic.

 

As an equal opportunity skeptic, I personally try to apply my skepticism to every sort of claim — to the Holy Ghost, and to ghosts in general. I think that if you consistently apply skepticism to all areas of your life, you will necessarily abandon many of the basic beliefs of the majority of people around you. Theism is just one belief you may abandon. But I don't think abandoning theism is a necessary result of skepticism, if only because I don't think every skeptic is always going to be completely consistent in her skepticism.

 

(Some may consider me inconsistent in my skepticism, by the way — for instance, I am persuaded by some of the arguments made by so-called transhumanists, and am cautiously optimistic about the emerging science of human life-extension; some of my fellow skeptics consider me completely gullible in this regard as a result.)

 

Even though PZ considers Pamela Gay a credible skeptic (that is, despite her theism), he took issue with her recent blog post in which she recounted and justified students giving religious explanations for how the universe would end on an astronomy exam. Because of this, and also because not all credible skeptics are admitted atheists, and because this seems to be something that perplexes many of us (but not PZ or me, it seems), I thought I'd ask Pamela Gay herself to comment on a few related questions.

 

SWIFT: How can you be a skeptic and a theist at the same time?

 

Pamela Gay: To me, skepticism applies to testable parts of my life. Through science, I can test ideas and make predictions. As a skeptical thinker, when I'm confronted with data I have to be willing to change my ideas about reality, and if the predictive powers of science fail me, I have to admit my science is wrong. A belief in God is a belief in something frustratingly untestable. I can make no testable predictions using religion, but instead find myself faced with having to make an opinion-based judgement. I have made the choice to believe. I admit I have doubts - I am not so strong a person as to say my faith is complete and that in the dark of night I don't worry that I'm wrong. But in the absence of data, I have made the choice to believe in a God.

 

 

SWIFT: Do you think there are domains of belief that should be off-limits to skepticism?

 

Pamela Gay: Someone who compartmentalizes their life - placing religion in one box and skepticism in another - is tearing themselves apart. The characteristics that define us are built on a foundation of personal philosophies, work ethics, and morals that are reflected in our actions. This means a skeptic must find a way to integrate their way of approaching reality with their belief or atheism. It doesn't mean skepticism can decide all the answers. To me, and I know many will disagree with me on this, the natural outcome in skepticism is acknowledging doubt. I am haunted with my uncertainty in God and envy theologians like CS Lewis and Ravi Zacharias who claim pure belief. I can't imagine a skeptical atheist not having the same moments of "But... what if?"


Within the skeptics community (and the world at large!) discussion is healthy. I believe everyone should live an examined life and be challenged to consider why they believe what they believe. I've been kicked out of Christian groups for challenging people's beliefs. (Dinosaurs did not co-exist with humans, and Neanderthals are not just humans who lived hundreds of years and grew new bone structures in their old age. If you believe those things, I will shred your understanding of geology, one sedimentary layer at a time.) At the same time, while people need challenged to live examined lives, I also respect that some people may not want to share with everyone their personal reasons for believing or not believing, and it is sometimes enough for someone to say, "Yes, examined that. New topic please."

 

SWIFT: What is more important to you: proving a student wrong when you think she is wrong, or helping a student see other viewpoints even if she doesn't adopt them?

 

Pamela Gay: I don't think this question has a black or white answer. If a student thinks moon phases are caused by the moon passing through the Earth's shadow (a common misconception), I need to remove the incorrect idea completely and replace it with our actual understanding of how the solar system works. If they are instead certain that the universe will end as is described in revelations, I need to get them to set that aside, and get them to understand how physics and astronomy say our universe will end, and get them to be able to hold onto both ideas at once. In this case, it shouldn't be a fight. Think of it this way - I may know with certainty that the ground hog in my backyard will eat any strawberries that grow in the garden, but I can know from a biological stand point exactly what should happen to those strawberries if they are allowed to grow, ripen, and fall from their vines. It is possible for me to hold both these futures in my mind without conflict, and it is important as an educator to get our students to see the world through the lens of science.

 

SWIFT: How often do religious questions arise in your astronomy classes or public lectures?

 

Pamela Gay: I don't think I've gotten all the way through a semester without a student raising their hand and asking me if I believe in God, and I think more then 50% of the public events I've spoken at have included people asking my beliefs. For reasons I don't understand, people — deists and atheists —  often think the religion of a scientist is more important than the quality of their science in determining if they are worth listening to.

 

SWIFT: Do you think such existential questions have a place in science education?

 

Pamela Gay: No. Science already has a hard enough job teaching facts-based science! In addition to what we know, there are also amazing unknowns in science that can be debated - multi-verse theories, string theory, the nature of dark energy. Facts and scientific debates are enough to populate our science education programs several times over.


We also need to be careful not to let the multi-cultural acceptance that is to be respected (to a point) in the humanities to also get applied to science. Astronomy as we teach it in the US contains the same facts as astronomy taught in India. I've dealt with too many people who think that just as we should allow people adhere to Islam, or Judaism, or Christianity, we should also let them adhere to Big Bang, or 7 Day Creationism, or the story of the Sun God and the Spider Woman. Cultural acceptance doesn't apply to science results, and an argument of Genesis versus Big Bang is like arguing if it is better to give someone antibiotics when they're sick or to like the color blue. Sure - you can have the argument, but it doesn't make any sense.


Life is complicated, and educating someone to intelligently handle life is a challenge all of us educators struggle to live up to. I will happily leave existential questions to the humanities faculty (and think science majors should have a liberal arts education), and stray no closer than discussions on the Drake equation with science. In my classroom, I want to create critical thinkers who ask "why do we think that?" If I succeed in that, I'm happy.

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In Agreement
written by William, June 29, 2010
Like Hal Bidlack, Pamela Gay is someone I can relate to. As I've pointed out, it is not a requirement that one be atheist to be an effective skeptic. I make no claim that a higher being exists, it is only a belief that I recognize as unprovable.
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Sting theory?
written by William, June 29, 2010
I believe there is a typo in Pamela's last answer..it should be "string theory".
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written by kenhamer, June 29, 2010
"To me, skepticism applies to testable parts of my life. Through science, I can test ideas and make predictions. As a skeptical thinker, when I'm confronted with data I have to be willing to change my ideas about reality, and if the predictive powers of science fail me, I have to admit my science is wrong. A belief in God is a belief in something frustratingly untestable. I can make no testable predictions using religion, but instead find myself faced with having to make an opinion-based judgement. I have made the choice to believe. I admit I have doubts - I am not so strong a person as to say my faith is complete and that in the dark of night I don't worry that I'm wrong. But in the absence of data, I have made the choice to believe in a God."

To me that seems like the essential characteristic of whatever the opposite of skepticism is. (Credulity?) You can take any allegedly testable belief or claim, add in some industrial strength woo, and then claim it's untestable. If you claim that fairys, homeopathy, leprachauns, eskimos and elves cannot be detected by any human means, then by the same logic you can then justify a belief in them, and claim they are beyond the reach of skepticism, or science. It's just a rationalization of belief in a specific kind of woo.

The height of the absurdity is in the outright admission of absence of data, or evidence. Notwithstanding the 2000+ years of non-evidence, even against repeated claims in the Bible that there will be evidence real-soon-now(TM), if you can believe in a god in the face of an "absence of data", then what can't you believe in? Tooth fairys, gremlins, Freemasons turning gold into lead in the centre of the planet Saturn? All of these become fair material for credulous belief, because notwithstanding the absence of data, they are all also untestable. (While that might be frustrating for some, for me it's a non-issue.)

In short a belief in something because you can't determine if it's real or not is a licence to believe anything that has not been proven not to exist. In other words, anything goes.
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Testable claims
written by William, June 29, 2010
@kenhamer, but I do not believe Pamela goes around claiming that her untestable beliefs are true.
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Is she being purposely obtuse?
written by Defaithed, June 29, 2010
Everything in me wants to find no fault in what Pamela's saying, and welcome her as a fellow skeptic with a unique ability to bridge a sticky gap... But isn't there something just wildly hypocritical – or at best, stubbornly obtuse – in her words? These words right here:

"A belief in God is a belief in something frustratingly untestable... But in the absence of data, I have made the choice to believe in a God."

Take those exact words, but replace "(a) God" with any of the following:

Zeus
gods and demi-gods and seven magic wishes in the afterlife
vampire zombies from the Smurf-iverse
the mitochloridian-based Force
Yahweh (riding Sleipnir) and Jesus (with fairy wings and four heads, just because) and Abby and Betsy (Jesus' twin psychic shapeshifter sisters)

... and infinite others we can imagine.

"A belief in The Council of Twelve Elvis Ghosts is a belief in something frustratingly untestable... But in the absence of data, I have made the choice to believe in the Council." Is Pamela saying we should hear that and *not* break out laughing? Why should we offer her version one iota more respect? How does her version differ in the slightest from it, other than in its safely assured acceptability among the majority?

isn't she saying – with no qualifiers whatsoever – that it's okay to just believe absolutely anything you like, as long as you can call it "untestable"? How could I possibly call such a person a skeptic?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding her words. Before I decide that PZ was only being far too kind to Pamela, someone please tell me... am I completely missing something??
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She's wrong about one thing...
written by Griz, June 29, 2010
...religion makes plenty of testable claims. As long as a self-labeled skeptic applies their skepticism equally across all areas, then there's no problem. You can believe in god as a first principle or cause for what we see around us, but when it comes to how that god interacts with his/her creation there needs to be the same critical thinking applied as when we're talking about dowsing or esp.

But this is not a problem only with religion. Seems to me we all have our blindspots. I've had discussions with hard core atheists on subject other than religion where they did not apply the same critical thinking but rather the same sort of reasoning that the religious do to protect their beliefs. One conversation that stands out in my mind was a debate about "drugs," what is classified as a drug, what's the difference between "hard" and "soft" drugs (completely arbitrary terms applied always according to someone's agenda), what criteria should be used to legalize or decriminalize. The person with which I had this discussion was not the least bit interested in any of the information I was able to provide that shot down his basic prejudice, that "drugs are bad, mmmmmkay?"
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You're giving religion a free pass
written by Skeptico, June 29, 2010

A belief in God is a belief in something frustratingly untestable. I can make no testable predictions using religion, but instead find myself faced with having to make an opinion-based judgement. I have made the choice to believe.


That’s OK, but then you need to acknowledge that this is one area in which you are not being a skeptic.
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written by Sajanas, June 29, 2010
Ah, Non-Overlapping Magisteria. From about age 13 to 16 I lived with that dichotomy, where I understood science implied that a lot of things that the Bible said were not real, but that I still believe in God and Jesus and the like. But if you spend enough time rebutting the patently incorrect science that some believers in religion share, you start to realize that the idea of NOMA is something that is put on science by religion, not put on religion by science. Should we really accept that evolution has nothing to say about religions that believe in special creation? Should we accept that neuroscience can find the source of memory, consciousness, emotion and language, and yet it cannot find a 'soul'? I don't think that its in the best interest of scientists to go round bashing every religious person for being foolish, but I don't think we should shy away from telling the provable truth, even when it is counter to what some religious people would like to believe. Having "respect for religion" is having disrespect to the individuals, if scientists shy away from telling them how the world really works, any more so than one would continue to tell an adult that babies are delivered by a stork.
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@kenhamer: Eskimos?
written by GusGus, June 29, 2010

Don't you believe in Eskimos?
.
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written by latsot, June 29, 2010
Kenhamer:
To me that seems like the essential characteristic of whatever the opposite of skepticism is. (Credulity?) You can take any allegedly testable belief or claim, add in some industrial strength woo, and then claim it's untestable. If you claim that fairys, homeopathy, leprachauns, eskimos and elves cannot be detected by any human means, then by the same logic you can then justify a belief in them, and claim they are beyond the reach of skepticism, or science. It's just a rationalization of belief in a specific kind of woo.


Yes, that's how I see it. A large part of the issue is that a lot of people (including many atheists) seem to think that religious beliefs (or at least, 'sufficiently' mainstream ones) are subject to special pleading of one kind or another, presumably because of the cultural significance religion has in most societies. Many people think we should keep our hands off religion and allow it to play by different rules to everything else, including other varieties of woo.

I can't see that the claims of god's untestability are anything other than dubious rationalisation and special pleading for two main reasons:

First, who says religious beliefs are untestable? I have never been able to understand this argument since a universe with a god in it would seem to be very different from one without a god. At least, any of the gods that human religions have claimed to exist. Someone might (and inevitably will) bring up gods that retreat into the background and hide after setting everything up. That might indeed be untestable in principle. However, that's not what the vastly overwhelming number of theists claim: they believe in some very specific (but different) things and there's no reason why these can't be tested in principle. There might be practical barriers to some or even most of the claims, but that isn't the issue. Holy books make claims about the universe that differ from what science tells us. Gay herself seems confused on this issue. She claims that she can't make any testable predictions from her religion, but then states categorically that the world is more than 6000 years old. Isn't this a testable prediction? If I hypothesise that the world is 6000 years old, I can run tests to see whether its true. This just seems like more special pleading: cherry-picking some bits of the bible away into metaphor without justification, just to retain the illusion of untestability.

Second, under what other circumstances would Gay say that lack of testability is justifiction for believing it? I think most atheists disbelieve in god simply because there are no good reasons to believe the holy books are anything other than silly stories. This is why the invisible pink unicorn argument is a perfectly reasonable response. It would be interesting to see whether Gay would argue that *any* untestable claim can be assumed to be true without harming your qualifications as a skeptic.

Like PZ, I don't think anyone has to be perfectly consistent in their skepticism to be a credible and trusted skeptic. However, all beliefs should be subject to skepticism. People don't get a special pass to have their beliefs remain unexamined just because they happen to be religious.
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No, You're Not Wrong...
written by DataJack, June 29, 2010
Defaithed - You are not wrong in your assessment of Pamela's beliefs, and how she justifies them to herself. However, one of your premises is flawed, and that may be why you are uncomfortable with your conclusion.

Pamela never asked that we "not break out laughing" or that we should show any respect to her beliefs (or anyone else's). She realizes she arrived at her beliefs from a path not skeptical, and is cool with that.

All that being said, I find any and all unsubstantiated beliefs to be on equal footing. Therefore, theistic religion and alt-med and homeopathy and moon-hoax nuttiness are all equally bad thinking, in my opinion. I do not, at all, think I am wrong about this. If one of these were proven to be true tomorrow, I still would not be wrong today, because I believe these positions to be untenable, today, because there is no evidence, today.

Also, there is one point where I disagree with Dr. Gay: When she says she sometimes wonders if her beliefs are wrong, and thinks skeptical atheists must too wonder, occasionally, if they are wrong. I don't. Not Ever. Because it would be silly for me to wonder if something, anything, might be both true and completely, totally, untestable. If something is real but untestable, then it is the exact same as it being "not real". If it has no mechanism by which it can interact with our universe, how does it differ from a cartoon character?
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written by latsot, June 29, 2010
William:

@kenhamer, but I do not believe Pamela goes around claiming that her untestable beliefs are true.


She goes around saying that she believes they are true. Kenhamer's point was that testing things is the main tool we have for determining what to believe and what not to believe. If you say your particular beliefs aren't subject to that tool because of magic, then you've lost the value of having the tool in the first place. There's nothing to stop you claiming that anything else is untestable. And as we know, that's exactly what many of the woo artists do.
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Testable vs Untestable
written by William, June 29, 2010
latsot:

I can devise a test to support my belief. The flaw is obvious, in that the proof and subsequent conclusion are still within the belief system. So, what Pamela Gay does is accept the belief, and realizes that one cannot test it using a pure scientific method (outside the belief).

Yes, she believes in her god. She admits that it is just a belief, and still is able to be skeptical about other things. She also admits that her belief can change given evidence. With no evidence of the absence of God, she still believes. And her belief in no way hurts others or herself.
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written by Trez, June 29, 2010
I also note that she doesn't say which God. Whilst we can be comfortable in our assumption that the universe was not created in 7 days and that dinosaurs didn't live hand in claw with humans, science can neither prove nor disprove the existance of a creator or deity.

Personally I'm an atheist as well as a skeptic, but don't necessarily see the two as being the same thing. Skepticism is an approach to how you think about things whilst the deist/atheist debate is a matter of belief.

My skepticism said that I need to look for the provable and testable evidence for the existance of a God. Mainstream religions were immediately written out, and after consideration I decided in the balance of probability that there probably isn't a God. Pamela Gay has taken the other option

She's agreed that things like creationism are quite frankly ludicrous, but at the end of the day there are still questions that science can't answer. The deist/atheist debate determines whether you beleive they are the work of God, or whether we just don't understand enough yet.

The Skeptic test is whether you even stop to consider both sides of the argument
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@GusGus
written by kenhamer, June 29, 2010
"Don't you believe in Eskimos?"

Just making sure people are paying attention.

After all, I *do* live in the Great White North.
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@William: Testable claims
written by kenhamer, June 29, 2010
"@kenhamer, but I do not believe Pamela goes around claiming that her untestable beliefs are true."

Perhaps, but if you believe something doesn't that imply that you believe it is true? What is the alternative? "I think x is false, but I choose to believe it is true anyway"? Maybe not, but how much different is that then "I do not know if x is true or false, but even in the face of no data or evidence, I choose to believe that it is true"?

Sometimes I believe in as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
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@William
written by kenhamer, June 29, 2010
"With no evidence of the absence of God, she still believes. And her belief in no way hurts others or herself."

I have no doubt that is the case with Ms. Gay.

However, while it may be well outside this discussion, for so many others their religious beliefs are justification for all kinds of nastiness.
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Re: Testable claims
written by William, June 29, 2010
kenhamer: There is a difference between "I think x is false" and "I do not know if x is true". We are saying "I believe x is true, and there is no evidence to prove it", which different yet.

Pamela is not saying "I think there is no god". She admits doubt, but that is not the same as "I do not know if there is a god". Instead, she says, "...in the absence of data, I have made the choice to believe in a God.", That is "I believe there is a god, and there is no evidence to prove it."
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written by Belmons, June 29, 2010
What I cannot understand is this: she says she "made the choice to believe in God." How the *%&!! can you CHOOSE to believe in something? Answer: you can't. Nobody can. So what she must mean is, "I have chosen to SAY I believe in God, and I'll defend this "belief" as far as I can, as long as it doesn't directly contradict my scientific knowledge." I'm afraid I have to say that this seems to me hypocritical. Once a scientist PRETENDS to believe anything, he or she ceases to be a scientist. What did Medawar say of Teilhard de Chardin - that he could be excused of dishonesty only on the grounds that before deceiving others he had gone to great pains to deceive himself.
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Lots of atheists aren't skeptics
written by David H. Gorski MD, PhD, June 29, 2010
Over the years, I have met many avowed atheists whom I would not consider to be credible skeptics, who are not very skeptical of the sorts of claims James Randi would call "woo woo." Sure, they lack belief in God, but believe in the New Age, or the power of crystals, or other paranormal or supernatural folderol.


Indeed. Bill Maher comes to mind as an excellent example of this. While castigating religion, he promotes for anti-vaccine nonsense, castigates "Western" medicine, and buys into all sorts of diet and nutritional woo.

Actually, at TAM7 last year, I encountered at least two attendees who clearly sympathized with anti-vaccine pseudoscience, this in spite of the Anti-Anti-Vax panel and the fundraising drive to support vaccination in Nevada.
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Gahh!
written by David G, June 29, 2010
Why did this software add my titles? Sorry about that...
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Chose to Believe
written by William, June 29, 2010
Belmons: No, she chooses to believe. Given careful introspection of what she observes, she has come to the belief that there is a god. That is a choice. She is not pretending anything.

Of course, they way you see it appears hypocritical, but it is not.
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written by Belmons, June 29, 2010
Sorry William, but you and I seem to have differing views of the meaning of English. If you study what you've observed, and thus arrive at a belief, it is not a choice. You can't help it. Anyway, surely she has not in fact made that "choice" on the basis of evidence. She freely admits there is none.
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Choice
written by William, June 29, 2010
It is called a "leap of faith", and one chooses to make it or some other leap of faith. If one doesn't choose to make a leap of faith, then there is no choice--and thus no belief. One can make whatever leap of faith one chooses, and it will still remain valid within the belief system.
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written by Belmons, June 29, 2010
Oh dear, William, you are arguing like a theologian (and I don't mean that as a compliment). The truth of a proposition does not depend upon whether you, or I, or all the world, choose to believe it. Choice doesn't come into it. It's either true or it isn't. The universe is what it is, it's not part of a "belief system".
Perhaps you're a relativist, and think one concept of reality is as good as another. If so, you are beyond help.
And another thing: in your scenario, presumably the choice one makes could be to DISbelieve. A scientist's experiments lead to a certain conclusion, but if he chooses (that magic word) he can reject the conclusion.
In the Soviet Union we had a good example of a leap of faith. T.D.Lysenko was made head of the Soviet Institute of Genetics because his ignorant belief in Lamarckism fitted political ideology, and Soviet agriculture suffered accordingly, (as did his scientific critics, who were banished, exiled or imprisoned).
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written by Willy K, June 29, 2010

Belief IS testable!

Belief happens in the brain, the brain can be tested.

Dr. May, look for information about neuroscience. You may find the evidence you need to stop believing in supernatural beings and you then might understand why you used to believe in them. smilies/wink.gif

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@David G
written by kenhamer, June 29, 2010
Why did this software add my titles? Sorry about that...


Hey, you worked hard for those.
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written by kenhamer, June 29, 2010
Then we're right back to who/what created the creator?

Or do creators just spontaneously appear?
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Never stop doubting!
written by pervel, June 29, 2010
Pamela Gay:... I am haunted with my uncertainty in God and envy theologians like CS Lewis and Ravi Zacharias who claim pure belief.


I don't know exactly what is meant by "pure belief," but given the context it would seem to mean "not having doubts." If that's the case, then I simply don't understand how a self-proclaimed skeptic can envy this. Doubt is a good thing. Doubt makes you think. Doubt is essential for skepticism. A person who has stopped doubting is a person who have stopped thinking.
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written by kdv, June 29, 2010
I agree with other posters who describe Gay's position as special pleading ... she won't countenance others' belief in a 6000 year old universe, but she considers herself a skeptic despite her belief in (a) God. As also has been pointed out, that belief *is* testable, at least in the case of the personal god worshiped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims, although perhaps not in the case of deist and pantheist gods.

However I concede it is possible to be a very sincere skeptic in one area, while being totally credulous in another. For example, I could conduct ( yet another ) rigorous scientific study discrediting every facet of homeopathy, from basic principles to practical applications, while still holding a sincere belief in UFOs. [ Of the alien intelligence kind, I mean, not the prosaic literal meaning ]. My belief in UFOs would in no way make my testing of homeopathy less valid.

However, and here's the problem, what do I say when the homeopaths come back at me and ask why I'm permitted to criticize them for believing without evidence, when I am guilty of exactly the same thing in my own field? I'm left feeling very silly, and, more importantly, disinterested third parties might think so too, and thus discount my research on that basis. I have shot myself in the foot. And probably caused the death or suffering of some innocent children too.

BTW: slightly off topic. Australia's Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, was replaced last week by his former deputy, Julia Gillard, as our new PM. [ Note: We don't have impeachments. A midnight knock on the door was all it took ].

Yesterday, on the radio, Ms Gillard was asked whether she believed in god. She replied that she does not believe in god, and she had no intention of pretending to do so in order to ingratiate herself with various groups in the electorate. I don't like her much in other ways, but she gets my big tick of approval for that one. Let's see, the last atheist US President was ... um... err.... can someone help me out here?

[ Sorry. Couldn't help myself :-) ]

[ Well, all right, I could have helped myself. But I decided not to :-) ]

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@kdv
written by Kritikos, June 29, 2010
Let's see, the last atheist US President was ... um... err.... can someone help me out here?

I'll guess Abraham Lincoln. Do I win a prize?
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No, You're Wrong Popsaw
written by DataJack, June 29, 2010
popsaw said "It is commonly believed that life on earth spontaneously appeared. Spontaneous life though has never been demonstrated therefore it is a theory that requires faith, just as believing in a creator requires faith."
No. That is not how science works. Theories do NOT require faith, they explain evidence, such as facts (observations), and laws (formulas or tendencies). Theories must predict yet-to-be-observed events, and must be falsifiable.

"God did it" is not a theory. Abiogenesis is.

popsaw said "Both claims are incredible yet one has to be true and one false. It is for skeptics to decide which they personally wish to believe and not for anyone to dictate otherwise, unless science can prove otherwise."

No. Not at all. Abiogenesis seems to be heading in the right direction, especially as we learn more about cell structure and DNA. The more we learn, the more the theory is modified to better explain reality. I have no doubt we will nail it, and soon. "God did it" still predicts nothing, and is not falsifiable. It is not now (and never will be) a scientific theory. We skeptics do not get to decide what we "wish" to believe, we accept the best possible explanation (theory) for a given occurrence.

Pamela has made it clear she does not accept Christianity because of the evidence, she believes it because she wants to. That's OK, as long as you don't conflate the two, like you did.
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written by minusRusty, June 29, 2010
*wrings hands at this becoming a gay conference* /ba-da-dum

-Rusty
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A question
written by tmac57, June 29, 2010
I wonder how most deists-astrophysicists would answer this question? Based on the current state of knowledge,rank the following in order of most, to least likely: a) String Theory b) That God created the universe c) That multi-verses exist.
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@danieljref
written by Kritikos, June 29, 2010
It's easy to see how the "true" (fundamentalists?) skeptics come about showing their "tolerance" to the ones that call themselves skeptic but believe in God. How dare a scientist (even a Doctor) claims to be skeptical with a belief in God? Because it's incoherent to be a skeptic and believe in God (does that sound like orthodox/fundamentalists religious people?). (quotes picked: "To me that seems like [...] the opposite of skepticism"; "isn't there something just wildly hypocritical"; "we should hear that and *not* break out laughing?"; " ...and [she] thinks skeptical atheists must too wonder, occasionally, if they are wrong. I don't. Not Ever." ; " How the *%&!! can you CHOOSE to believe in something?" - And so on and so forth.)


You show an amazing ability to miss the point, Daniel. The quotations that you cite pertain to the epistemological rule that Dr. Gay invokes to sustain her theism, not to the theism itself. That rule is that belief is permissible wherever empirical refutation is impossible. People have argued (1) that this rule gives license not only to Christian theism but to all manner of wacky beliefs, and (2) that such a rule is contrary to skepticism. If you have a counterargument to these claims, by all means let us hear it. I suspect that you haven't.
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written by latsot, June 29, 2010
William:
I can devise a test to support my belief. The flaw is obvious, in that the proof and subsequent conclusion are still within the belief system. So, what Pamela Gay does is accept the belief, and realizes that one cannot test it using a pure scientific method (outside the belief).


I don't understand this argument. Take a specific claim that a given religious person makes (say, prayer helps ill people get better), work out to their satisfaction what needs to be tested, how it is going to be tested and what the results would tell us, then just test it. This has nothing to do with belief systems; you'd just be testing a specific example of a belief held by a specific person or group of people. Such a test wouldn't prove or disprove the existence of any gods, but that's not what I'm advocating. I'm just saying that many of people's religious beliefs can be tested, at least in principle. This can be done empirically, and not within anyone's belief system (whatever that means). Gay's claim that her beliefs are untestable is just plain wrong. A religious person can always retreat to the extent of being vague about what their beliefs are or describing a god whose existence genuinely can't be tested, but then they'd have to explain their belief in the various trappings of their particular religion, some of which will be testable propositions.

Yes, she believes in her god. She admits that it is just a belief, and still is able to be skeptical about other things. She also admits that her belief can change given evidence. With no evidence of the absence of God, she still believes. And her belief in no way hurts others or herself.


I've never suggested that she's not entitled to her beliefs and have no problem with her holding them, although I don't see how whether her beliefs hurt others or not (which is debatable) is relevant. I have no particular problem with her being considered as an effective skeptic in other areas. I'm in no position to insist that everyone who identifies or is identified as a skeptic must be skeptical in all areas at all times. But I think I can insist that if we wish to be thought of as skeptical, *all* our views must be fair game for examination. I'm not saying that Gay thinks otherwise, just that religious views shouldn't get a free pass.

I also think it's not unreasonable to doubt someone's skeptical credentials if they are known to deliberately suspend their skepticism (or their standards for skepticism, as in Gay's case) in some important area. It may well be that such people are perfectly effective skeptics in those other areas, but it seems a good enough reason to keep an eye open. Bill Maher (rightly) gets a lot of stick for some of his medical views although he's admired in other ways. Isn't it reasonable to wonder whether he really understands what it means to be skeptical? Shouldn't we take an extra bit of care when thinking about the claims of someone who is known to ignore certain kinds of evidence?

Finally, I fail to see how Gay can claim that evidence could change her beliefs if she also says that her beliefs are untestable (although I can't see where in the text she says the former, perhaps she's said it elsewhere). Where is this evidence going to come from if not from tests?
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written by latsot, June 29, 2010
popsaw:
It is commonly believed that life on earth spontaneously appeared. Spontaneous life though has never been demonstrated therefore it is a theory that requires faith, just as believing in a creator requires faith. Both claims are incredible yet one has to be true and one false. It is for skeptics to decide which they personally wish to believe and not for anyone to dictate otherwise, unless science can prove otherwise.


You are discounting arguments from probability. The probability that life spontaneously appeared and the probability that god exists and was responsible are not equal. In fact, the proposition that life 'spontaneously' appeared (if we agree that the transition from what we'd call non-life to what we'd call life was gradual) is not increadible at all. It's pretty plausible given what we already know.

You are actually talking about two different types of faith. We have strong, coherent scientific theories about the origins of life, many of which agree with each other. While we can't (yet and perhaps not ever) we have a pretty good idea about the sort of processes that must have been going on and we're learning more all the time. The 'faith' we need in this proposition is minimal: we just need to accept that there are some gaps in our knowledge of the specifics.

By contrast, to believe in some kind of god, we need to postulate a magical being who has never supplied a *jot* of evidence in its own existence.

Do you seriously think these two types of faith are the same?
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credible skeptics
written by ClareZ, June 29, 2010
I have great respect for both the interviewer and the interviewee but I must state that the only sensible belief for a skeptic is agnostism. God has not been proven or disproven and agnostics are not afraid to say, "I don't know". It isn't a wishy washy stand, it is a call to reason.

That said, I really don't care what anyone else thinks - we all crave a philosophy we can live with and that feeds our needs. I wouldn't presume to throw stones at anyone else's.
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True Skepticism
written by ClareZ, June 29, 2010
""Should skeptic organizations be atheist organizations?,""

Of course not. The should be agnostic organizations. An agnostic accepts that about the truth or falseness of God, they do not know...yet. And this isn't a wishy-washy stand, it is a call to reason.

That said, life is hard and everyone needs a philosophy they can live with and embrace. Very few people when asked if there is a god say, "Who cares?" Everyone has a thought on it for a variety of reasons. And for that reason alone, all who embrace critical thinking in 99 44/100 % (or even 80%) of their lives should be encouraged.
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True Skeptic and the unknown
written by ClareZ, June 29, 2010
This is my third go round trying to post this so if all three show up at once - SORRY!

A true skeptic would not be a theist, a deist or an atheist but an agnostic. An agnostic accepts that without enough facts about something s/he just does not know. One day math or science may prove the extremely hard to prove, but until then it is just a guess one way or the other. Ms. Gay is no more unreasonable than any hard core atheist who insists there is no god. What s/he should be saying is, I can't commit one way or the other because there isn't enough data...yet.

And this is not wishy-washy thinking. It is a call to reason.

That said, life is hard and it's long and filled with challenges and we all want a philosophy we can live with and I don't begrudge anyone who is trying their best. And anyone who uses critical thinking in 80% of their daily dealings is way ahead of the pack.
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"Fundamentalist" skeptics?
written by Defaithed, June 29, 2010
@DataJack:

Defaithed - You are not wrong in your assessment of Pamela's beliefs, and how she justifies them to herself. However, one of your premises is flawed, and that may be why you are uncomfortable with your conclusion... Pamela never asked that we "not break out laughing" or that we should show any respect to her beliefs (or anyone else's). She realizes she arrived at her beliefs from a path not skeptical, and is cool with that.


Thanks for the response. Though please note that I don't claim what she does or doesn't ask; rather, I simply ask whether or not she would request that we not laugh at belief in (for example) invisible pink unicorns.

The reason I find Gay's stance a wee dismaying is because it's sad to see a fellow skeptic (?) back herself into such a no-win corner. The question we have to ask of her is this: Would she take her statement about belief in God, with "God" replaced by "gods" or "Quetzalcoatl" or "invisible unicorns", and allow that version as equally valid? The problem she faces is this:

If she laughs off, or dismisses, or otherwise demotes the "invisible unicorn" version, then that's special pleading – not even for religion itself, but for a particular sect of religion. It's an utterly untenable stance of "this untestable belief is OK, because I say so; others are less OK, again because I say so."

On the other hand, if she says, "Sure, I'd have to allow all versions as equally valid", then she's just asking to be laughed at. Not by skeptics alone, but by everyone. "A belief in space fairies is a belief in something frustratingly untestable... But in the absence of data, I have made the choice to believe in space fairies." Anyone saying that will be a laughing stock.

I have no idea how she'd respond, but – and maybe my imagination is just too limited here – it looks like a no-win place to be. Unless I'm missing something, no matter how you answer the question, you lose. The only way to slip by without embarrassment would be for onlookers – supposed skeptics – to just politely cough and look away and not ask the belief-holder how s/he would answer that unpleasant question. In which case we're all no longer skeptics.


@danieljref:

It's easy to see how the "true" (fundamentalists?) skeptics come about showing their "tolerance" to the ones that call themselves skeptic but believe in God. How dare a scientist (even a Doctor) claims to be skeptical with a belief in God? Because it's incoherent to be a skeptic and believe in God (does that sound like orthodox/fundamentalists religious people?).


As always, I apologize if I'm just misreading things, but: Isn't your entire answer sneaking around a key question, and invoking special pleading to do so? You keep mentioning "God". But the question isn't about a special "God" (if it were, that'd be special pleading). It's whether one can announce a belief in anything one wants, and by adding "it's untestable!", still be recognized and respected as a skeptic.

Let's try it. Let's replace the so-very-socially-acceptable "God" with something a little more... out there:

"It's easy to see how the "true" (fundamentalists?) skeptics come about showing their "tolerance" to the ones that call themselves skeptic but believe in 5th-dimensional Thetan psychics. How dare a scientist (even a Doctor) claims to be skeptical with a belief in 5th-dimensional Thetan psychics? Because it's incoherent to be a skeptic and believe in 5th-dimensional Thetan psychics (does that sound like orthodox/fundamentalists religious people?)."

How does that sound? Is it just as valid as the "God" version? The above claimant might be a pleasant and intelligent and highly accomplished person, and a wonderfully insightful skeptic on many topics, all of which I'm sure apply to Ms Gay... But would you feel a little less certain about applying the skeptic label to the above "belief in Thetans" claimant, than you would for a "belief in God" claimant?

If I said, "Er... that Thetan-believing 'skeptic' may be all-around a wonderful person, but s/he isn't terribly skeptical...", would that really make me a "fundamentalist"?
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Be certain you know what Theism is before you spout..
written by Mark P, June 29, 2010
For example, it is pretty stupid to regale a Theist with ...

Notwithstanding the 2000+ years of non-evidence, even against repeated claims in the Bible that there will be evidence real-soon-now(


... since Theism is not about any revealed texts.

Nor does the following make much sense ...

Take those exact words, but replace "(a) God" with any of the following:

Zeus
gods and demi-gods and seven magic wishes in the afterlife
vampire zombies from the Smurf-iverse
the mitochloridian-based Force
Yahweh (riding Sleipnir) and Jesus (with fairy wings and four heads, just because) and Abby and Betsy (Jesus' twin psychic shapeshifter sisters)


... since many of these are not incompatible with Theism!

The big issue for Theists is usually the things that science can't explain. Where the universe sprang from, in particular. All the rabid Atheists saying how silly Theism is, while confusing it badly with conventional religion, are still stumped with this one. It is unexplainable.

I say Pamela's reason - "God" did it - is as reasonable as the Atheist one - it popped into being out of nothing. Actually I think they are both intrinsically unlikely, which is why I'm Agnostic.

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written by DataJack, June 30, 2010
Mark P: "I say Pamela's reason - "God" did it - is as reasonable as the Atheist one - it popped into being out of nothing. Actually I think they are both intrinsically unlikely, which is why I'm Agnostic."

No. That's not how atheism works. Or even how critical thinking works. Or even how regular thinking works. Atheism says merely, "I don't believe in gods". Good atheism appends, "Because there is no evidence". That's it. Atheism has nothing to say about the origins of the universe, and it is extremely sloppy thinking for you to suggest that it does.

As to said origins, critical, scientific thinking says this, and this alone: "We don't yet know how it came about."

Fifty years ago, we didn't know about DNA - does that mean "god did it" was an acceptable answer for genetic inheritance?

Three hundred years ago we didn't know about germ theory - does that mean "god did it" was an acceptable answer to disease?

"We don't know...yet" is one of the most liberating statements one can utter. "god did it" is one of the most stifling.

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written by latsot, June 30, 2010
ClareZ

This is my third go round trying to post this so if all three show up at once - SORRY!


I got email notifications of all your posts hours ago, but they only just appeared on the site (all at once). It seems sometimes to take a while for posts to make it to the site. I'll choose your third post to respond to:

A true skeptic would not be a theist, a deist or an atheist but an agnostic.


Technically, yes. But let's not nit-pick overly about the definition of 'atheist'. Or 'true skeptic', for that matter. Personally, I identify as an atheist, but technically I'm agnostic. If good enough evidence turned up, I'd change my position, but until then I'll go with the overwhelmingly more probable alternative, which is that there's no god. So to all intents and purposes, I count myself as an atheist. I'm secure in that position and I don't expect that will ever change, because I don't expect good enough evidence for a god to ever show up.

But if it does, I'll spin on a dime.

A common misconception about the agnostic position - which I suspect you share - is that it necessarily assumes that god and not-god are equally likely. This is preposterous. It is perfectly reasonable to insist that there's probably no god if there's no good reason to believe that there is one, just as it is with invisible unicorns etc. And there *is* no good reason to believe either, as any skeptic should acknowledge (as Gay does, even though she believes one of them anyway).

An agnostic is someone who'll change her mind if the evidence requires it, not necessarily someone who won't discount goblins just because nobody has disproved them to her personal satisfaction.

De facto atheism of this kind is a rational and skeptical position. 50/50 agnosticism isn't because it ignores the balance of probabilities.
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Bad reason?
written by J. D. Mack, June 30, 2010
"He also lists what he thinks are some bad reasons that skeptic organizations shouldn't be identical to atheist organizations, like the desire not to offend religious folks who are allies in advancing skepticism and critical thinking, as long as it doesn't undermine theism. "

I am an atheist, but I live in the real world. I think this is a *great* reason for skeptical organizations not to be equivalent to atheist organizations. As a skeptic, I have a vision for how I want things to be, and making theists uncomfortable with being skeptics is not going to get us there. It *is* possible to believe in some sort of god and reject all other pseudo-scientific claims, whether the hard core atheist/skeptic wants to believe this or not. If we only allow "perfect" skeptics at the table, then the movement is dead.
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written by William, June 30, 2010
..and the observation would still fit the belief system, even if it was false, since the premise was based on the belief system in the first place.

"Yep, she was healed! And since my premise said religion did it, therefore the premise is true." I recognize that flaw, and never make any claims to its veracity.
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written by latsot, June 30, 2010
William, is your last post a reply to what I wrote? If so:

..and the observation would still fit the belief system, even if it was false, since the premise was based on the belief system in the first place. "Yep, she was healed! And since my premise said religion did it, therefore the premise is true." I recognize that flaw, and never make any claims to its veracity.


I don't think you understand how science works.
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Gotta agree with JD Mack about this part:
written by Mr. Science, June 30, 2010
"If we only allow "perfect" skeptics at the table, then the movement is dead."

Pardon the religious metaphor, but the winning strategy looks for converts, a losing one looks for heretics.
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written by halohms, June 30, 2010
Personally, I will have to question any of her skeptic conclusions in light of knowing she believes in a god. I am relatively new to skepticism but not to atheism. Not sure what should develop first during a persons learning process. I don't find it logical to be selective in your skepticism if you want to have any of your statements valued. You must be consistent and a belief in a god is not consistent with being skeptical.

Just like if I said I had a dream of a winning lottery number and won. I, as a skeptic would deny the dream and say it was random chance. If I promote myself as being able to dream lottery outcomes, my credibility as a skeptic is in question.

So I will side that to be a real skeptic, you can not believe there are any gods (except for the FSM).
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Well thought out, halohms
written by Mr. Science, June 30, 2010
I mean, really --- great thinking! Anyone who is wrong about one thing must be wrong about everything. Perfectly rational. Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics, obviously one can't trust any of his conclusions about physics.

And no statements from a non-atheist should be valued, clearly. No similarities to the thinking of religious fundamentalists there, nosir.
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written by latsot, June 30, 2010
Mr. Science, you are ill-named. Your analogy is stupid. Halohms did not in any way suggest that someone who is wrong about one thing must be wrong about everything. I think you'll find that it was you yourself who said that, nog Halohms.
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written by Mr. Science, June 30, 2010
Perhaps, latsot, but your reading skills need some work. Here's what halohms had to say: "Personally, I will have to question any of her skeptic conclusions in light of knowing she believes in a god."

So, I think you'll find he did say exactly what I claimed. Hmmm, when inconvenient facts interfere with the argument, deny said facts and call whoever pointed them out names. Great going, latsot - now you're arguing like a creationist!
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written by latsot, June 30, 2010
Mr Science:

OK, Troll.

Halohms can question someone's skeptical abilities on the grounds that they believe something silly such as religion without implying that someone who is wrong about one thing is wrong about everything. These aren't the same thing now, are they?

By all means enjoy your trolling though.
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written by halohms, June 30, 2010
Mr. Science doesn't understand written English very well. I basically said that I must question the validity and correctness of everything else she says for myself as opposed to accepting everything she says because how do we know she hasn't applied the same rules to her skepticism as she did for her belief in a god? Her belief in a god is flawed and hence she is no longer perfect.

Now, having seen a lot of what PZ Myers has written, I am almost certain to accept what he says to be accurate and the truth since I have not seen him error ever. He should be proclaimed the 5th horseman.
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written by Mr. Science, June 30, 2010
There goes my crappy understanding of English again. Halohans didn't say being wrong about one thing (the god/religion question) makes you wrong about all things... just that it makes it illogical to place any value on your statements if you whiff on that question.

Wow, for people who disdain religion, these two sure have co-opted the m.o. of religious fundamentalism well. Just as bible-belt fundamentalist claim "you can't pick and choose what parts of the bible to believe," you've offered up "if you believe in one irrational thing, you obviously can't be right on other skeptical matters." (I was thinking just that some time back when I read the work of avowed Christian Gregg Easterbrook when he eviscerated Sylvia Browne.) Just as the most devoutly religious offer their special pleadings, latsot gives us "I'm not saying being wrong about one thing makes you wrong about everything... unless you're wrong about religion, in which case you are." Just as fundamentalists avoid rational examination of the facts, y'all slam Pamela Gay's ability to think skeptically in all areas based only on the fact that she believes in God, not on any examination of her ideas in those other areas.

And above all, daring to question the orthodoxy = grounds for dismissal with name-calling. It's obviously just trollery, there couldn't possibly be anything worth actually thinking about.
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written by halohms, June 30, 2010
Mr. Science (wrong name for you), you are correct there, you do have a "crappy understanding of English". As a militant atheist, I say if you believe in any gods, you are wrong and delusional! The probability that there is a god ever is 1/infinity and lacking any proof, I will live and behave as if that number is ZERO!
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No offense but...
written by Alencon, June 30, 2010
No offense but she sounds just like me five or six years ago.

I'm not sure if atheism is a subset of skepticism or simply whether the two sets have a healthy overlap. I've meet atheists that I wouldn't particularly consider skeptics. Besides, like someone said up above, we all have our blind spots.

I think, I don't know, but I think, that if one allows skepticism to run its course unimpeded, in the overwhelming majority of cases it leads to atheism. Of course there are many valid reasons NOT to let skepticism run its course and often it's an unexpected, unpleasant or violent nudge that forces one to keep following it to that logical conclusion.

I see nothing particularly wrong with choosing to believe in a god. I see lots wrong with claiming knowledge of the existence of a god and even more wrong with claiming to know his (her? its?) will.
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Ok. Let's see... (or @Kriticos and @Defaithed)
written by danieljref, June 30, 2010
@Kritikos
You must have not read the quotes, because "hypocritical", "break out laughing" and "*%&!!" are neither techinical nor valid terms to analyze epistemological rules. So your first fact is wrong, but let's move on...

Now, what you think is an explanation is exactly the point I'm trying to show. Could you please tell what skepticism is, because last I checked it could be a philosophical school or stance, a position towards some aspects of science, even a personal position towards a specific object, area or field of reality or maybe a simple doubt. And in none of these cases there is an authority to judge who fits the definition. Are you in any position to tell which (meaning) is the right one? Are they (the ones I quoted)? Neither of you created nor contributed in any bit to Skepticism in all of its possible meanings. Why are you so sure that you know what it IS and what rules it follows? And what about proclaiming who IS and who IS NOT a skeptic? There is no other reason than the fact that you accepted what somebody else told you about it and you simply follow them because you want to. And now you behave in no different way that all religious people who are sure that Truth has been revealed onto them. You are just credulous about what you've been told and since it fits your experiences you accept it and out of nowhere you proclaim yourself as someone with the authority to include/exclude people in the Skeptic group.

@Defaithed

Initially your example changes in no way what I intended to say (apologies accepted). The problem is not in what you believe, but in people behaving as representatives of Skepticism with knowledge and authority to say who IS and who IS NOT a skeptic (which is exactly as any representative of any religion defining what are the religion rules and saying who belongs and who doesn't - and judging the ones who doesn't).

Secondly, if you change words of a sentence to get a ridiculous meaning you previously intended and tries to apply the ridiculous meaning back to the original sentence, you may have a point. Unfortunately, that's not valid and will lead to incongruities. Don't agree? Ok. Let's try your way (I may oversimplify, but I think you will get my point)...

Original: The Theory of Evolution explains how life evolved in planet Earth and ended up in the different species of living beings we see today.

Argument: If someone accepts the Theory of Evolution, s/he cannot be a true scientist. Because the question is not about a special "life", it's whether someone can accept that a theory can explain the evolution of anything and still be recognized as a scientist. Let's replace the so-very-socially-acceptable "life" with something a little more... out there:

"The Theory of Evolution explains how 5th-dimensional Thetan psychics evolved in planet Earth and ended up in the different species of 5th-dimensional Thetan psychics we see today."

How does that sound? Is it just as valid as the "life" version? Would you feel a little less certain about applying the scientist label to the "evolution of Thetans" claimant, than you would for a "evolution of life" claimant?
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Huh?
written by Defaithed, June 30, 2010
@danieljref:

Sorry, I truly don't follow. Yes, the statement "The Theory of Evolution explains how 5th-dimensional Thetan psychics evolved in planet Earth..." is less valid than "The Theory of Evolution explains how life evolved in planet Earth...". It's far less valid.

"Life" is real (at least in every sense that we can call something "real" – it's observed, it's testable, it exists, it's there).

"5th-dimensional Thetan psychics" are not real – or at least, there's been no evidence at all demonstrated for the existence, the "reality", of such.

The two statements are very, very different. If it was your intent to make that point, then we're well agreed. (If not... I'm missing the point.)


Now, back to an earlier pairing:

"A belief in God is a belief in something frustratingly untestable... But in the absence of data, I have made the choice to believe in a God."

vs

"A belief in psychic Thetans is a belief in something frustratingly untestable... But in the absence of data, I have made the choice to believe in psychic Thetans."


Is the second of these as equally valid as the first? A simple "yes" or "no" should do! (Ideally followed by the "why", of course.)

Should either, or both, of the above, be more exempt from criticism than typical skepticism targets like homeopathy or astrology? Again, a very simple answer should suffice.


I'm not looking to be obnoxious or make decisions on who is or isn't a skeptic. I'm just trying to understand what the main article is saying about the inclusion of some non-skepticism in a skeptic's views. Certainly, we'll all fall short of 100% skepticism, as well noted in the article:

"Theism is just one belief you may abandon. But I don't think abandoning theism is a necessary result of skepticism, if only because I don't think every skeptic is always going to be completely consistent in her skepticism."

Reading and re-reading that, I sense (and hope) that the author isn't making a special plea for theism, and tosses it out only as one example. And I assume that the author, being consistent, would be equally as comfortable with "Reiki healing is just one belief you may abandon. But I don't think abandoning reiki healing is a necessary result of skepticism, if only because I don't think every skeptic is always going to be completely consistent in her skepticism."

I guess the point, then, would be simply: "Don't expect 100% perfection and consistency in any individual's skepticism." I can't disagree with that!

But I also agree fully with PZ's rejoinder: "Don't expect those lapses from skepticism to be exempt from criticism".
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...
written by grahamk5, June 30, 2010
As an atheist and skeptic (and vegetarian) I notice contradictions and hypocritical beliefs and actions within myself. I confess I have not reached perfection or purity. I believe there is great irrationality in some of my actions or feelings about issues. I like this. I don’t always want cleanliness. I enjoy spotting contradictions within myself and seeing if I can (or want to) resolve them. I have not come across Pamela Gay before but I greatly respect her ability to mix and talk with heretics such as us. I admire her doubt, even about her own religious faith, yet her desire to stand forth. She seems a woman of great integrity and I wish to aspire to her achievements as I hate religious, political and ideological purity!
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written by William, July 01, 2010
A militant atheist is as bad as a bible-thumping evangelist.

Anytime you say "you're wrong" for a belief, when there is no evidence to support your claim, you are as bad as the ones you are fighting against.

Pamela gay does not claim knowledge of the existence of God or any god, but that only she believes in God. She is also not pushing that belief on others and condemning them for not believing. And neither am I.
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Tough
written by halohms, July 01, 2010
William, do you think that of Dawkins and Hitchens?

Burden of proof of the existence of any god is believers and not not mine. One can not prove something does not exist in this vast universe.
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The neck of the Giraffe
written by popsaw, July 01, 2010
Dr. Arthur E. Wilder-Smith:-
"The Evolutionary model says that it is not necessary to assume the existence of anything, besides matter and energy, to produce life. That proposition is unscientific. We know perfectly well that if you leave matter to itself, it does not organize itself - in spite of all the efforts in recent years to prove that it does."
Neither intelligent design nor evolution did it. Perhaps we need a new theory!
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I think you get it... And it's a simple NO (although if followed by a "why" is not that simple anymore)
written by danieljref, July 01, 2010
@Defaithed

Well, you got my point correctly ("Theory of Evolution" example).

You know that "life" is real because you know what this term means and by the concept you have of it, you know it is true because it is self evident.

While, on the other hand, "5th-dimensional Thetan psychics" is a term which inherently carries with it the notion that it cannot be real.

It may be a wild guess, but you seem to think that your pairing does not comprise the same idea I gave in my example (described above), i.e., the concept you have of the term "God" inherently carries the notion that it cannot be real. And for that reason you think your pairing is dealing with two unreal entities (only differing in name). The problem is in the premise (so to speak) not in the conclusion. The concept of God does not carry this unreal notion (at least as it is originally intended). If you don't really know why, write what you understand the term God means, and I'll start from there to show my point (so as to show the "why" that you asked for).

I didn't mentioned it earlier because it was simply not my point, but either way you look at it I think she is wrong (I'll leave the details for later). Nevertheless, even thinking that she is wrong I have no idea as if, for her "wrongness", she is skeptic, religious or something else (and honestly I couldn't care less).

One of the issues I'd like to point out is this one: Who said Skepticism is a rock hard concept that should be followed in everything pertaining reality? For instance, is there a science that study all reality at once? If not, how do you know there is a reality? Are you skeptic about it, too? So could there be something that even if not measured by any science is true?

On a side and final note, I found it very offensive what the author said (and you quoted - "...completely consistent in her skepticism"). He is simply saying she can only take such stance because she is a double-standard hypocrite. So, for me, here is another skeptic judging someone because she doesn't "fit the rules" of his group.
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@danieljref
written by Kritikos, July 01, 2010
You must have not read the quotes, because "hypocritical", "break out laughing" and "*%&!!" are neither techinical nor valid terms to analyze epistemological rules. So your first fact is wrong, but let's move on...

You are quite right that I did not give equal weight to all the quotations: I paid attention to the substantive ones and disregarded those that were mere exclamations, as only the former seemed to me relevant to identifying a position that might be criticized.
Now, what you think is an explanation is exactly the point I'm trying to show. Could you please tell what skepticism is, because last I checked it could be a philosophical school or stance, a position towards some aspects of science, even a personal position towards a specific object, area or field of reality or maybe a simple doubt. And in none of these cases there is an authority to judge who fits the definition. Are you in any position to tell which (meaning) is the right one? Are they (the ones I quoted)? Neither of you created nor contributed in any bit to Skepticism in all of its possible meanings. Why are you so sure that you know what it IS and what rules it follows? And what about proclaiming who IS and who IS NOT a skeptic? There is no other reason than the fact that you accepted what somebody else told you about it and you simply follow them because you want to. And now you behave in no different way that all religious people who are sure that Truth has been revealed onto them. You are just credulous about what you've been told and since it fits your experiences you accept it and out of nowhere you proclaim yourself as someone with the authority to include/exclude people in the Skeptic group.

Daniel, I will try to respond to this as if you were asking a legitimate question and not just being an obnoxious, blustering windbag.

You ask me to tell what skepticism is. Well, as you are surely aware, there is a popular movement that calls itself the skeptical movement, and calls what it advocates skepticism. The JREF is one prominent organization that belongs to it; others include the Committee for Free Inquiry and the Skeptics Society. Among the persons associated with this movement there is a considerable degree of agreement as to what they mean by skepticism. For instance, the writer or writers of one page on the Web site of the Skeptics Society define it thus: "Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position." Others might add further details or change the emphasis but, as I said, there is nonetheless a considerable degree of agreement in essentials.

Of course, the word "skepticism" has other senses. "Skepticism" in the aforementioned sense is a very different thing from what was practiced by the ancient Greek thinkers to whom the word "skeptic" was first applied, and different again from how the word is most commonly used, as when someone says, "His claims were met with skepticism" (i.e., doubt). If you like, we can do some lexicography and word-history here. None of that bears on the questions about skepticism that have been discussed on this page, such as whether it is compatible with skepticism to believe in God.

I could elaborate on this question in terms of the understanding of the word "skepticism" that is operative among the people who write for this blog and most of those who respond in comments, but your post already seems to me to offer sufficient evidence that you have neither the desire nor the ability to respond to the issues in a substantive and rational manner.
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And...
written by danieljref, July 01, 2010
@Kriticos
I paid attention to the substantive ones and disregarded those that were mere exclamations

I'm sorry. Are you apologizing or did you actually want me to read your mind and talk about the things "to which you paid attention" and "seemed to you as relevant"?

"Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position."

Do I need to point out that you have said literally nothing with this?

And even if it did mean something, I could ask: (1)Did you apply reason to the idea of skepticism? (2)Do you know what reason means? (3)Do you know what application of reason means? (4) How is belief in God not an application of reason? And so on...

The funny part is that, as I see it, if I apply your "definition" of skepticism to yourself, then you sure are not a skeptic, because in any part of your response I saw "application of reason". V.g.: "considerable degree of agreement" surely does not mean a definition (which I asked for), even less that it should be applied as if it had a "total degree of agreement" - where is the "application of reason" by which a "degree of agreement" becomes "the right definition"?; By which "application of reason" did you arrive to the conclusion that because it has a "considerable degree of agreement" means that this is the "definition" you should follow?; Which "application of reason" did you use to avoid answering the main point of my reply, i.e., what gave you (or anybody else) the certainty of the definition you chose and what/who gave you (or anybody else) the authority to proclaim WHO IS a skeptic?

I could try to respond to issues in a substantive and rational manner. But if by "substantive and rational manner" you mean accepting without "skepticism" any definition you give simply because you want it to be that way, While at the same time avoiding the points i raised, I assure it'll be really hard.
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@danieljref
written by Kritikos, July 01, 2010
The funny part is that, as I see it, if I apply your "definition" of skepticism to yourself, then you sure are not a skeptic, because in any part of your response I saw "application of reason". V.g.: "considerable degree of agreement" surely does not mean a definition (which I asked for), even less that it should be applied as if it had a "total degree of agreement" - where is the "application of reason" by which a "degree of agreement" becomes "the right definition"?; By which "application of reason" did you arrive to the conclusion that because it has a "considerable degree of agreement" means that this is the "definition" you should follow?; Which "application of reason" did you use to avoid answering the main point of my reply, i.e., what gave you (or anybody else) the certainty of the definition you chose and what/who gave you (or anybody else) the authority to proclaim WHO IS a skeptic?

Calm yourself, Daniel. The meaning of the term "skeptic" as used within the skeptical movement (as, e.g., on this comment page) is determined by the common practice within that movement. That is the point of appealing to common agreement among its adherents. Common usage is what gives meaning to a word. The right definition is the one that describes that usage. So the relevance of the appeal to agreement should be obvious to anyone who does not hold the superstitious view that definitions determine usage rather than the other way around.

Skeptics identify skepticism as the exercise of critical thinking and scientific method. More fundamentally, skepticism is the practice of making the acceptance of claims contingent on the provision of sufficient evidence for them. I believe that these characterizations of skepticism would, perhaps with some modification, be widely accepted among members of the skeptical movement. They define what we are talking about when we use the word "skepticism."

None of this, though, is relevant to the issue about Dr. Gay. The issue there is whether it is consistent with skepticism to hold, as she does, that religious beliefs, or at least her religious beliefs (whatever they may be) are "untestable," and therefore immune to skeptical criticism. Both points are under dispute: whether religious beliefs are untestable, and, even if they are, whether it is compatible with skepticism to hold untestable beliefs. These are interesting, substantive issues, on which your intemperate tirades about definition do not seem to me to shed any light.
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God of the gaps lives!
written by feldesq, July 02, 2010
Essentially Dr. Gay is arguing for the "god of the gaps." This means her god keeps moving away as the gaps are filled. She must also insist that there will always be such gaps -- to justify such a god. From a critical thinking perspective, she is working against herself. She, like Hal Bidlack, have come to her theism from a strong emotional base. This proves they are just as human as the next guy (gal). We would not wish to deny them their poit of view, but we can hardly applaud them as skeptics when they assert such a view.
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@Kriticos
written by danieljref, July 02, 2010
I thought my questions were pretty clear but since you decided to not answer any of them, I'll give you this chance, analyze what you said (although I may point out some issues you left behind) and pretend I didn't see that you turned everything around, so as to show that at some point my issue was analyzing the acceptance of Dr. Gay in a group, instead of the existence of such group and its actions.

Before I say anything, I think it would be best to sum up what I understood from what you said until now:
The term Skeptic means (or should mean) what a certain group ("skeptical movement") says (somehow) it means. There may be differences in the meaning, but nonetheless it has an identifiable core. This group only arises by the aggregation of individuals joined by their common practice of applying Skepticism (as they somehow define it). There is no authority in the group but some individuals have a "higher recognition value". Anyone can join this group as long as s/he follows the rules (somehow) set by this group. The rules must be consistenly followed. There is no prior identification, so anyone can call himself a Skeptic but is latter subjected to scrutiny to check whether that person fits those rules and, consequently, the group. This scrutiny can be done by anybody (including the self-proclaimed) and since there is no unity, there can be divergence between individuals of the Skeptical movement. If, at some point, it is somehow defined that a certain person does not follow the rules s/he will be (and should accept to be) ostracized. And this person shall remain excluded from the group (and to be called a Skeptic) until s/he repents, accepts the fault and return to following the rules.

Am I correct in my depiction? This may sound arrogant but in order to save time (and wait for the answer) and since I believe I'm correct, I'll answer my own question. YES.

If this is so, with some nips and tucks to the text I just wrote, I could simply change "Skeptic" by "christian" and "Skeptical Movement" by "Christianity" and I just described a religious group. Which is the first point I made in this post (skepticism is nothing more than another religion). So your explanation is probably a Q.E.D.

Now to other points you raised.

I can accept "common usage is what gives meaning to a word". The issue becomes: Is common usage an "application of reason"? And does common usage by a specific group give authority to this group?

Skeptics identify skepticism as the exercise of critical thinking and scientific method. More fundamentally, skepticism is the practice of making the acceptance of claims contingent on the provision of sufficient evidence for them.

You finally gave me something to work with. First question (just to clear it out): Is consistency necessary? (this looks like a big issue for you and since I didn't see it in the descritption you made...)
Second: Is there (or can there be) something that is outside the scope of "scientific method"? Or put in another way: Can science measure everything?
Third: If the previous answer is Yes, how is Skepticism applied to that "something"?
Fourth: Can a claim be true regardless of any tests?

I'll wait in order to continue the analysis of the "substantive issues" you want so much.
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...
written by halohms, July 02, 2010
Here is a blog concerning Bill Nye's support of Activeion woo water in which someone who is highly respected and trusted as a man of science throughout his career sold out to woo for money.

http://skepticblog.org/2010/04/22/bill-nye-selling-out-to-the-man/

The analogy is similar to Pamela Gay in that we now must question Bill's future work.

Bill tried to support his endorsement in his own site but it falls short of credible.

http://www.billnye.com/for-the-nanobubble-skeptics/

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@danieljref (part 1 of 2)
written by Kritikos, July 02, 2010
(Apparently my comment was too long to be posted in one go, so I am breaking it into two parts.)

Before I say anything, I think it would be best to sum up what I understood from what you said until now:
The term Skeptic means (or should mean) what a certain group ("skeptical movement") says (somehow) it means.

No; I explicitly said that the word has several meanings. I specifically mentioned, by way of contrast, the ancient Greek school to which the term was originally applied, as well as what I described as the most common use of the word (actually the noun "skepticism," but I think it carries over to the use of the word "skeptic"). I am talking about what the word means as used by the people who write for JREF and most of those who post on comment pages like this one, on the forum, people affiliated with the other institutions that I mentioned, and so on. More to the point, I am talking about the use of the word in the blog post on this page and the various comments that have been posted here—the use operative in the question "Can one without inconsistency be a skeptic and a theist?", which I take to be the primary issue under discussion here.
There may be differences in the meaning, but nonetheless it has an identifiable core. This group only arises by the aggregation of individuals joined by their common practice of applying Skepticism (as they somehow define it). There is no authority in the group but some individuals have a "higher recognition value".

Right.
Anyone can join this group as long as s/he follows the rules (somehow) set by this group. The rules must be consistenly followed.

I can't say whether this is accurate, because I don't know what rules you are talking about. I do not recall mentioning any.
There is no prior identification, so anyone can call himself a Skeptic but is latter subjected to scrutiny to check whether that person fits those rules and, consequently, the group. This scrutiny can be done by anybody (including the self-proclaimed) and since there is no unity, there can be divergence between individuals of the Skeptical movement.

No; setting aside your invocation of "rules," which as far as I know has no basis in anything that I said, the people in the group give a meaning to the word "skepticism," but it does not follow that only the people in the group count as skeptics. They define the word primarily as a certain epistemological attitude and practice. So whoever shares that attitude and that practice is a skeptic, regardless of whether he affiliates himself with any skeptical organization.
If, at some point, it is somehow defined that a certain person does not follow the rules s/he will be (and should accept to be) ostracized. And this person shall remain excluded from the group (and to be called a Skeptic) until s/he repents, accepts the fault and return to following the rules.

This is pure invention on your part.
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@danieljref (part 2 of 2)
written by Kritikos, July 02, 2010
If this is so, with some nips and tucks to the text I just wrote, I could simply change "Skeptic" by "christian" and "Skeptical Movement" by "Christianity" and I just described a religious group. Which is the first point I made in this post (skepticism is nothing more than another religion). So your explanation is probably a Q.E.D.

For any social group you care to name, there is a way of describing it which will also fit some religious groups. For any two entities, there is a way of describing one that will also fit the other. I am not impressed. What is the point of the exercise?
I can accept "common usage is what gives meaning to a word". The issue becomes: Is common usage an "application of reason"?

No, common usage is not an application of reason. Neither is breathing. Yet skeptics indulge in both. Wow! So what?
And does common usage by a specific group give authority to this group?

Authority in what, or about what? I just can't tell what you are talking about.
First question (just to clear it out): Is consistency necessary? (this looks like a big issue for you and since I didn't see it in the descritption you made...)

Necessary for what? I think consistency is an intellectual virtue and inconsistency a fault, if that is what you are asking.
Second: Is there (or can there be) something that is outside the scope of "scientific method"? Or put in another way: Can science measure everything?
Third: If the previous answer is Yes, how is Skepticism applied to that "something"?
Fourth: Can a claim be true regardless of any tests?

These are very interesting and difficult questions. I have thoughts about them, but no settled answers. I do not, however, see that I have to answer them in order to say what skepticism is or why your utterances on the subject have failed to show that it is a religion. It seems to me that you are trying to open a much broader discussion. I might be interested in a discussion of such issues as these with a sympathetic participant. I credit you with having set aside, for the moment, the polemical aggressiveness with which you introduced yourself into this discussion, but I am not any more interested in your thoughts than I think that you are interested in mine.
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Correction (@danieljref)
written by Kritikos, July 02, 2010
I wrote in "part 1" above:

For any social group you care to name, there is a way of describing it which will also fit some religious groups. For any two entities, there is a way of describing one that will also fit the other. I am not impressed. What is the point of the exercise?


That was the wrong response. What I ought to have said was this: I see that your point is to show that skepticism is a religion. But to show that some description fits both skepticism and Christianity (or whatever religion) does not show that skepticism is a religion, any more than showing that some description fits both my wallet and a turnip shows that my wallet is a vegetable.
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@Kriticos (1/2)
written by danieljref, July 03, 2010
Initially, I must apologize. I failed to mention that my answer had 2 different parts. The first one was making reference to the point I made. In the second, I tried to address the issue you wanted answered. You kinda mixed both, but I'll try to correct it as I go along.

The issue (for you) is if Dr. Gay is a Skeptic while believing in God. You acknowledged (again) that the word has several meanings. If it has several meanings, Dr. Gay could fit any of them. But only one of them is being used. One that has a "considerable degree of agreement". So the term Skeptic is being accepted only in the sense (somehow) defined by a group. Right? If that is right, I can't see how you do not agree with the first quotation. Could you elaborate? I only ask because the question "Can one without inconsistency be a skeptic and a theist?" is already rejecting all other meanings and using the one defined by the group.

I do not recall mentioning any.

You said (or quoted) that skepticism is (the application of reason) to any and all ideas, i.e., you have to apply reason to any and all ideas to practice skepticism; that it is a method (I can't see one without rules); that skepticism follow an epistemological rule, i.e., a belief is not permissible wherever empirical refutation is impossible (this point may've been defended by other people but looks like you side with them); you talk of an "epistemological attitude and practice" and that whoever shares the attitude and practice is a skeptic. Isn't sharing an attitude and a practice, a rule?, i.e., you have to share it to be considered a Skeptic? These are not all the rules. The point is that some rules exist.

[4th quotation]
You said that "whoever shares that attitude and that practice is a skeptic, regardless of whether he affiliates himself with any skeptical organization". But I never talked about organizations. I said group. The skeptics group. You agreed that this group only arises by the commom practice of applying skepticism. So, restating my point. If a common practice defines if someone belongs to the group (instead of an authority nominating this one as a skeptic). As long as this someone thinks he shares this practice he can call himself a skeptic. But whether if this person "truly" is a skeptic will depend on the "acceptance" of other people in the group who will analyze if he shares the practice as was defined by a "considerable degree of agreement". And since there is only a "considerable" and not "total" degree of agreement, people in the group may differ in defining if someone is a skeptic or not.

This is pure invention on your part.

Your whole point is that if Dr. Gay (in this case because of her belief) does not consistently apply skepticism, she cannot be called a skeptic, i.e., she shouldn't be accepted as a skeptic because she does not apply skepticism to God. As long as she does it, she can't be accepted. If and when she does, she can be called a skeptic. How is this invention of my part? In the post, a blog was quoted as saying Dr. Gay is not a skeptic (reasons in the blog, but regarding belief in God). PZ Meyer was quoted (in the comments) as saying don't expect those lapses from skepticism to be exempt from criticism". How is all this invention of my part?

I'll assume this was an honest mistake, because, as I said earlier, I can only go so far as long as someone is honest. After that there is no point.

there is a way of describing it which will also fit some religious groups

So you must provide the difference as to show me it isn't so.
Up until now, I was just trying to show my point. From this point on, I decided to answer your point regarding Dr. Gay and it has nothing to do in defining skepticism as a religion. So I don't think your last paragraph (part 2) is applicable to my point but is important to yours.
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@Kriticos (2/2)
written by danieljref, July 03, 2010
So what?

Well, you said skepticism is "the application of reason to any and all ideas". You seem to make a big deal about consistency and skepticism. You didn't apply reason to the meaning of the word skeptic. Do I need to paint it? Sounded like a great big deal to me.
Authority in what, or about what?

Authority in defining what a word mean, and therefore who should use it, and define what are the requisites to use it, and make this group (above everybody else in the world) the one that can say what is skepticism and who is a skeptic. Let's say, if homeopaths and astrologers get together and by a "considerable degree of agreement" use the word skeptic as to describe anybody that follow the common practice of homeopathy and astrology, would they be entitled to call anyone who thinks homeopathy and astrology is bs to not be a skeptic?
Necessary for what?

For skepticism. Should skepticism be consistently applied to any and all fields of reality? For skeptics. Should someone be called a skeptic if s/he does not consistently apply skepticism to any and all fields of reality? If someone does not apply skepticism to one aspect of reality, can s/he be called a skeptic?

If you're interested in seeing your point further analyzed I'll wait for the answers to the First, Second, Third and Fourth questions I made.
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@danieljref (for the last time, I hope)
written by Kritikos, July 03, 2010
Daniel, at this point, I don't think it likely that anyone is reading these comments besides you and me. Further, I find the dispute with you to be an utterly barren wrangling over words and trivialities. So I think you will understand my not wishing to carry it on indefinitely. For the present, however, I will reply to you on the points that seem to me important.

Your whole point is that if Dr. Gay (in this case because of her belief) does not consistently apply skepticism, she cannot be called a skeptic, i.e., she shouldn't be accepted as a skeptic because she does not apply skepticism to God. As long as she does it, she can't be accepted. If and when she does, she can be called a skeptic. How is this invention of my part?


Show me where I ever made any such point. Not where D. J. Grothe or P. Z. Meyers made such a point, but where I made it. Or let me spare you the trouble by telling you that I never made or implied any such claim. That is where you are indulging in fantasy (here).

So you must provide the difference as to show me it isn't so.


I "must" if I am interested in what you think, which I am not. I have pointed out that your argument is a non sequitur, which I should think enough on my part. In any case, I think I did what you describe when I identified the points on which your version of my position misrepresented it (part 1 of my previous two-part comment).
Well, you said skepticism is "the application of reason to any and all ideas". You seem to make a big deal about consistency and skepticism. You didn't apply reason to the meaning of the word skeptic. Do I need to paint it? Sounded like a great big deal to me.


First you were saying that common usage itself is not an application of reason, which I granted but also disparaged as a trivial observation, like saying that breathing is not an application of reason. Now you seem to be saying (though I can't be sure that I understand you) that to invoke common usage in order to establish the meaning of a term is not an exercise of reason. If that is your claim, then I find it at least pertinent, but I also find it implausible and groundless. If that is not your claim, I can't tell what your claim is.

Authority in defining what a word mean, and therefore who should use it, and define what are the requisites to use it, and make this group (above everybody else in the world) the one that can say what is skepticism and who is a skeptic. Let's say, if homeopaths and astrologers get together and by a "considerable degree of agreement" use the word skeptic as to describe anybody that follow the common practice of homeopathy and astrology, would they be entitled to call anyone who thinks homeopathy and astrology is bs to not be a skeptic?


This is getting immeasurably tedious. Look, there are these people who talk about skepticism and skeptics, and describe themselves and what they do in those terms. I have been saying that if you want to know what the words mean when they use them, you look at how they use the words, and at what they say about what they mean about the words. I cannot see how this point can be reasonably disputed, or why it should even be worth discussing, let alone arguing about. The point seems to me banal and obvious, and I can't understand why you put so much work into muddying it. If the words are used in some other sense in other contexts—as I have repeatedly granted that they are—that's fine, as long as there is no mix-up over which sense is in play in a given context. I fail to see that this business about the meaning of words sheds ANY light on the dispute over Pamela Gay, theism, and skepticism. It seems to me a completely artificial and sterile quibble that you have belabored pointlessly.

For skepticism. Should skepticism be consistently applied to any and all fields of reality? For skeptics. Should someone be called a skeptic if s/he does not consistently apply skepticism to any and all fields of reality? If someone does not apply skepticism to one aspect of reality, can s/he be called a skeptic?


I don't know. I don't have a settled position on that question. I have nowhere taken or implied a position on that question. It is not a question that I am interested in exploring with you. All that I have been trying to show is what the question is (in Grothe's post and the comments on it) and how you have repeatedly muddled it with bogus arguments about how skepticism is a religion.
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Correction
written by Kritikos, July 03, 2010
if you want to know what the words mean when they use them, you look at how they use the words, and at what they say about what they mean about the words

That should have read "by the words."
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Thanks for reply
written by Defaithed, July 05, 2010
No, I'm not looking to bounce a lapsed discussion back to life. I'm just checking back here at this late date, and want to quickly say thanks to danieljref for the response.

A little summary and commentary below. Nothing exciting, and no challenges to anyone, so if interest has waned, please ignore.

FWIW, I still have no idea whether the author (DJ Grothe), or Ms Gay, or both, would defend the point that it's all right to mix one's overall skeptical outlook with a little non-skeptical belief of any kind – in this case's specific example, belief in God. OR, whether they'd instead defend the same point but specifically with regard to the God in question, not extending the same approval to belief in (say) Reiki-powered Grey aliens. OR, whether they'd even insist that such non-skeptical belief be kept down to "a little"; maybe they're fine with a lot of it.

That was the point of my posts: wanting to know whether the discussion is only about the very specific case of Ms Gay's theism, or whether it's about the broader picture of non-skeptical beliefs in general. If the answer was in the article or comments, I missed it.

But anyway. Your reply to me does seem to suggest that for you, "God" belief and "psychic Thetan" belief are categorically different – the latter, you say, "inherently carries with it the notion that it cannot be real", whereas the "concept of God does not carry this unreal notion (at least as it is originally intended)".

As you note, yes, that would depend on what one understands the term "God" to mean – in this case, what Ms Gay, or those applauding her stance, would take it to mean. For my part, I still see the unfortunate scene of a "skeptic" backing herself into a corner. To wit:

If "God" follows one of those vague definitions like "God is my name for the universe... for love... for order...", then God becomes just a rather meaningless name for things we all believe in and already have serviceable, non-controversial words for, and the whole discussion becomes a dull waste of time.

Whereas if "God" is defined as the specific, magical Heaven-being who condemned the eating of shrimp and made all kinds of rules regarding foreskins and the proper conduct of genitals, then belief in that God is not one whit more sensible than belief in psychic Thetans atop astral unicorns. Sure, one's entitled to happily believe in such things, but it sure is silly.

Maybe a more defensible belief lies somewhere between those extremes. I'll have to leave it to believers to spell that out.

Re the question, "Who said Skepticism is a rock hard concept that should be followed in everything pertaining reality?":

Not I. I would only suggest that we follow the path of honesty, as well as we can. When a person (whether labeled "skeptic" or not) reveals a belief that is most decidedly not skeptical, it's quite all right to respond with, "That particularly belief is not skeptical". It's an honest thing to say. To which the believer might respond, "I know it's not skeptical, but I choose to believe it anyway". That itself carries a welcome bit of honesty (as opposed to the "No, my theism is based on hard facts!" sputtering that one hears too often). After which... well, where do we go from there? Maybe "All right then! Let's go have beers!" : )

Final paragraph: "On a side and final note, I found it very offensive what the author said (and you quoted - "...completely consistent in her skepticism"). He is simply saying she can only take such stance because she is a double-standard hypocrite. So, for me, here is another skeptic judging someone because she doesn't "fit the rules" of his group."

Sorry, I don't at all follow the references or the source of any offense... but that's fine, let's move on.

Again, no intent here to keep a quieted discussion going; part of my writing is to help myself hash things out in my head. Thanks again for the earlier replies.
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Supernatural being is not testable
written by wdunlap, July 06, 2010
Kenhamer says:
"To me that seems like the essential characteristic of whatever the opposite of skepticism is. (Credulity?) You can take any allegedly testable belief or claim, add in some industrial strength woo, and then claim it's untestable. If you claim that fairys, homeopathy, leprachauns, eskimos and elves cannot be detected by any human means, then by the same logic you can then justify a belief in them, and claim they are beyond the reach of skepticism, or science. It's just a rationalization of belief in a specific kind of woo."

Things have really two explainations how they came about. Matter appeared like magic from nothing and exploded in a big bang or a creator was necessary. Since there is no cause available when you have nothing, a creator tends to seem like a real possibility. Also, the Anthropic Principle states that there are 4 constants that have an extremely narrow range or life could not exist. If the gravitational constant is too strong, the universe would have collapsed shortly after the big bang, if too weak, exploding matter would continue to spread out too fast for planets to form. If the strong nuclear force were too strong, atoms would be too tightly held together and no compounds could be formed. If too weak, atoms would soon break apart. The point is that these constants have such a close tolerance that it is unlikely that they could come about by chance. In that case, it again appears that a creator is necessary.
You state that a creator is "woo". To me that is not an answer. All you are doing, like so many others here, is mouthing one of Randi's favorite words. Time to thing for yourself. I agree with a lot of things Randi states or I wouldn't be here, but I disagree with many things he says too. BTW, please explain how science can prove or disprove a creator. You can't. Science is only really designed to test material things. Even what I said above is not proof, but it is a reasonable hypothesis.
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Ouch. Where to begin?
written by DataJack, July 06, 2010
wdunlap said:
"Things have really two explainations how they came about. Matter appeared like magic from nothing and exploded in a big bang or a creator was necessary. Since there is no cause available when you have nothing, a creator tends to seem like a real possibility."

This is a false dichotomy. Just because one's understanding requires a "first cause", that doesn't mean it was a "creator". And it certainly doesn't mean it is the god of the bible. It could have been an infinite and eternal universe generator (IaEUG). That is just as likely as a sentient god; there is equal evidence for both. Therefore, it is time to invoke the skeptic's best phrase, "We don't know...yet".

Then said:
"Also, the Anthropic Principle states that there are 4 constants that have an extremely narrow range or life could not exist. If the gravitational constant is too strong, the universe would have collapsed shortly after the big bang, if too weak, exploding matter would continue to spread out too fast for planets to form. If the strong nuclear force were too strong, atoms would be too tightly held together and no compounds could be formed. If too weak, atoms would soon break apart."

If these constants didn't permit matter, and subsequently sentient life, then we wouldn't be here to notice. If my IaEUG were the answer, an infinite amount of universes would be generated, some that can have matter and life, some that can't. A great answer to this is "If our universe didn't permit us to observe it, we wouldn't be here to do so."

Then said:
"The point is that these constants have such a close tolerance that it is unlikely that they could come about by chance. In that case, it again appears that a creator is necessary."

Arguments against chance are not really arguments. If chance didn't create the universe the way it did, then we wouldn't be here to notice it. Supposing a sentient creator because odds are against something is sloppy thinking.

Then said:
"You state that a creator is "woo". To me that is not an answer. All you are doing, like so many others here, is mouthing one of Randi's favorite words. Time to thing for yourself. I agree with a lot of things Randi states or I wouldn't be here, but I disagree with many things he says too."

"Woo" means something believed without evidence (or not believed despite evidence). There is no evidence for gods or sentient creators, therefore it is, by definition, "Woo".

Then said:
"BTW, please explain how science can prove or disprove a creator. You can't."

That's not how science works. If there is no evidence for something, it is safe to assume it doesn't exist. If you posit something exists, the onus is on you to provide evidence. Once cannot prove unicorns don't exist. That is not reason to believe in them.

Then said:
"Science is only really designed to test material things."

That is because material things are the only things that exist. If something is not material, and doesn't interact with the material world, it is the same as not existing. If it is immaterial and does interact with he material world, it can be scientifically tested. I suppose you could say it is immaterial, can interact with the universe, but is hiding so there will never be evidence. But that is stupid, and also is about the same as not existing.

Then said:
"Even what I said above is not proof, but it is a reasonable hypothesis."

No, it is a hypothesis, but it is in no way reasonable. It doesn't present mechanisms to explain anything, it is not falsifiable, no experiment or observation could support it or refute it. "God of the gaps" is a terrible argument. It is time once again to invoke "We don't know...yet". That is the only honest answer to the origins of the universe for now. It is lazy to invoke imaginary beings to fill gaps in knowledge. That way lies intellectual stagnation.

DataJack
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lying for jesus
written by latsot, July 06, 2010
Oh MR SCIENCE:

latsot gives us "I'm not saying being wrong about one thing makes you wrong about everything... unless you're wrong about religion, in which case you are."


Oh dear. I didn't say that now did I? Let's be tedious about this since you are determined to be a dick. Where precisely did I say that?
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written by aob, July 06, 2010
Regarding the relationship between skepticism and atheism, a proper analogy might be that a vegetarian doesn't eat red meat because vegetarians don't eat any meat. However, just giving up red meat (while perhaps still eating other meats) does not make you a vegetarian. The red meat is atheism, and the vegetarianism is skepticism.

Intellectually honest skeptics don't believe in gods because skeptics don't believe in anything for which there is a complete lack of evidence. However, simply not believing in gods does not make one a skeptic.
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Undermining Science
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 07, 2010
There is no reason to criticize theist skeptics unless the topic is their theism. But, one runs the risk of being hypocritical and undermining scientific principles if one grants special exceptions to rational thinking when it comes to certain popular god beliefs. Ask yourself how you would view Ms Gay if her god belief was certainty that Pe'le controlled volcanic eruptions on Hawaii.
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 07, 2010
Supernatural being is not testable written by wdunlap, July 06, 2010

That depends on how you ask the question. If you start (erroneously) with the conclusion, "gods exist, prove they don't", then of course you cannot test that question. But if instead you ask, "where does the evidence lead", it is clear the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion, god beliefs are mythical beliefs humans invented. In addition, the hypothesis, god beliefs originated because real gods interacted with people, cannot be supported. If you can conclude, Zeus is a mythical being, you can conclude, the pattern is also clear that all gods are mythical beings. After all, have we deciphered the genomes of all life on the planet? No, but that doesn't stop us from rationally concluding, all life on Earth has its genetic blueprint.

Personally, I find the "untestable" argument to be an excuse for sidestepping politically sensitive subjects like dogmatic god beliefs. It's true one is not likely to gain anything by challenging all god beliefs all the time. Look at the main argument in this discussion, "let's not offend theists who are otherwise rational thinkers". Can't we just address the issue as one of politeness and not offending people, regardless of the imperfect rationalism of the individual? Who among us is the true skeptic? I hope to be polite toward all irrational thinking. I don't always succeed, but I mean to.

But why must we make a unique exception by sidestepping certain popular god beliefs lest we be labeled intolerant atheists as if that was different from intolerant rationalists? I make no greater apology for calling god beliefs irrational than I make for calling homeopathy irrational. I'm sorry if god dogma is an otherwise rational thinker's problem, but the god belief is the problem. My atheism is not the problem.

The issue I have here is allowing a hypocritical exception for certain god beliefs. We fabricate a category, "faith based beliefs", as if there is some aspect of the Universe evidence doesn't apply. We claim one "can't test gods beliefs" when with everything else we follow the evidence to the conclusion, we don't expect to fit the evidence to the conclusion. It's rare to think about the evidence of how god beliefs developed and what they represent (myths, not real gods) when we are doling out the rational thinking passes to theists who can't see they've been indoctrinated.

One can be polite and kind without special hypocritical exceptions that undermine science and rational skepticism.
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written by William, July 08, 2010
Ginger-
You should recognize the flaw in your argument. Just because 1 god is mythical doesn't mean all gods are mythical. That's a fallacy that applies to ANY argument. It may be that the evidence "overwhelmingly supports the conclusion", but the final logical step cannot be confirmed.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", as I once heard Carl Sagan repeat. Now, if you want to start proving that all gods are mythical, you go down the road of trying to prove the negative.

I make no claim that my belief in God is correct. I admit the possibility that I may be wrong (as does Pamela Gay). I also freely admit there are other beliefs out there--some contradictory to my Christian education. When I see that, I try to understand their beliefs and see how it fits in with my observations of the world. I accept their beliefs as theirs and try not to criticize them (i.e., not calling them "delusional", "misguided", "damned for eternity", etc.). It's called tolerance.
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written by wdunlap, July 08, 2010
DataJack said:
"This is a false dichotomy. Just because one's understaning requires a "first cause", that doesn't mean it was a "creator".And it certainly doesn't mean it is the god of the bible. It could have been an infinte and eternal universe generator (IaEUG). That is just as likiely as a sentient god; there is equal evidence for both. Therefore,it is time to invoke the skeptic's best phrase, "We don't know..yet"."

Why is my statement false? I gave you valid reason why a creator may be a necessity. For matter to come from nothing you need a cause and when there is nothing, a cause cannot exist. Therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that a supernatural being would then be required. You said it certainly doesn't mean it is the god of the bible. I never suggested that. In fact, though I was raised a Christian, volumes of research has proven to me that the Bible was man-made and not God inspired. The description of the God in the Bible is nothing more than one of many attempts to describe what a god would be like if it existed. If a God exits, and I think it is a possibilty, no on could even begin to comprehend what this would be like. It certainly wouldn't be like that petty god described in the Old Testament of the Bible. I agree that we don't know yet, but you seemed to be indicating a certainty on your par that a god or creator doesn't exist. I am an agnostic, so I admit that I do not know the answer, but that doesn't stop me from using reason which has caused me to lean toward theism. The definition of an atheist is one who states there is not god or creator. Since existence of nonexistence of a god or creator cannot be proven, I feel that the atheists, like the theist, are both basing their argument on FAITH.


"If these constants didn't permit matter, and subsequently sentient life, the we would be here not notice."

Ah, but we are here, aren't we? Therefore, I stand by my argument that, since these constants must all be in an extremely narrow range, the possible need for a creator is a valid argument.

"Arguments against chance are not really arguments. If chance didn't create the universe the way it did, then we wouldn't be here to notice it. Supposing a sentient creator because odds are against something is sloppy thinking".

How is this sloppy thinking? If somthing is so astronomically against chance then a creator is a valid possibilityt. That said, perhaps it could have been dumpb luck, but suggesting that could be construed as "sloppy thinking".

I am quite awae what Randi means by Woo. The reason I brought it up, is that so many here use the terminology of the master, Randi, thinking it adds credence to their argument. I'm here to tell you that it doesn't. Every time someon uses the word woo, my eyes glaze over because it simply come across as someone who is acting like a sheep and not thinking themselves.

"That's not how science works. If there is no evidence for something, it is safe to assume it doesn't exist."

I strongly disagree. Just because science is not able to detect a supernatural being, doesnot necessarily mean it doesn't exist.

"No, it is a hypothesis, but it is in no way reasonable. It doesn't present mechanisms to explain anything, it is not falsifiable, no experiment or observation could support it or refute it. "God of the gaps" is a terrible argument. It is time once again to invoke "We don't know..yet". That is the only honest answer to the origins of the universe for now. It is lazy to invoke imaginary beings to fill gaps in knowledge. That way lies intellectual stagnation."

According to Webster's dictionary, Hypothes implies insufficient evidence to provide mor than a tentative expanation. That is what I am doing.

Being an agnostic, I admit that we don't know yet, but that is no reason to sit on my duff and not try to come up with a possible reasoned explanation. And, note that I did not say "oh we can't explain it, it must be God". I gave a reasoned explanation why I think a creator is necessary. To me, saying we don't know yet is what you refer to as being lazy and leads to intellectual stagnation. I.E., saying we don't know and the automatically writing off a creator as possiblity can lead to stagnation even though we can come up with reasons why a creator may be a necessity. Science is a wonderful tool, but it is not the end all be all.
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written by wdunlap, July 08, 2010
Reply to skeptic Ginger

I agree that the descriptions of various gods are just man's attempt to explain what these god or gods, if the exist, would be like. I submit to you that, if a creator exists, then it would be far beyond what anyone could imagine.

One can look back and see that when there were thing that were not understood, a god would be given as a reason such as a god dragging a burning chariot across the sky. Once science found an explanation, this god disappeared. My reasoning still suggest the necessitiy of a creator. Science may one day prove me wrong, but if I am right, then science will fail here.
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written by wdunlap, July 08, 2010
DataJack,
I tried several times to reply to your post, but for some reason it hasn't appeared here yet.
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written by Skeptigirl, July 08, 2010
written by William, July 08, 2010
Ginger-
You should recognize the flaw in your argument. Just because 1 god is mythical doesn't mean all gods are mythical. That's a fallacy that applies to ANY argument. It may be that the evidence "overwhelmingly supports the conclusion", but the final logical step cannot be confirmed.

You make the standard argument, but you ignored that I addressed the standard argument in my comments.

You can ask the question 2 different ways. Do gods exist? Or, what best explains god beliefs, real gods or myth?

The only reason to ask the question, do gods exist, is if you accept that 'belief' is evidence. Just because people believe in homeopathy is not 'evidence' homeopathy is real. You can make a scientific process semantic argument, one cannot prove gods don't exist. Would you make the same scientific process semantic argument that unless you test every single homeopathy dilution, you cannot prove homeopathy is not effective?

My complaint here is the double standard applied to the god question that skeptics don't apply to other scientific questions. You don't start with the conclusion that because people believe in homeopathy the question should be, prove it doesn't work.

In addition, the scientific process doesn't seek proof, it seeks the best explanation supported by the evidence. Before plate tectonics were discovered, it was a 'fact' the Earth's crust was one piece. In retrospect that 'fact' was wrong. But we rightfully continue to operate on our working scientific 'facts', including the new 'fact' the Earth's crust consists of moving plates.

There is nothing in the scientific process that requires adding the caveat, you cannot prove something, to everything we accept as 'fact'. It's a given in science that new evidence can always be discovered which challenges the current conclusions which have the status of 'facts' like plate tectonics. That given does not prevent us from drawing scientific conclusions that certain evidence is overwhelming enough to be considered a fact unless something new is unexpectedly discovered.

Yet you have some skeptics again applying a double standard to god beliefs, demanding one accept the possibility gods exist because one cannot prove they don't. There is no valid reason for such a hypocritical approach to god beliefs. Follow the evidence to the conclusion, don't try to fit the evidence to the predawn conclusion, gods might exist. If you ask the right question, what best explains god beliefs, you can honestly evaluate the evidence.

I take from your answer that you don't want to ask the right question. You don't want the evidence to get in the way of your religious indoctrination. You choose to apply a double standard to god beliefs. How many dilutions of homeopathic mixtures do you need to test to draw the conclusion, homeopathy is bunk? How many cells do you need to find genetic material in to draw the conclusion all life on Earth reproduces via DNA or RNA blueprints? How many objects do you need to drop off a building to draw the conclusion gravity will make the next object also fall?

We have overwhelming evidence people made up god myths as far back as the historical record goes. There is no evidence any real gods ever interacted with people. Your rationale that you can maintain your god belief because one cannot prove there are no gods in the Universe is a hypocritical scientific argument that applies a double standard to god beliefs you are not applying to other scientific questions. I don't care that you want to maintain your god belief. But I do care that you want to make a scientific argument for your belief. Because in order to make such an argument, you have to apply a hypocritical double standard.
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@ wdunlap
written by Skeptigirl, July 08, 2010
You've provided your own argument against your argument:
One can look back and see that when there were thing that were not understood, a god would be given as a reason such as a god dragging a burning chariot across the sky. Once science found an explanation, this god disappeared.

Science hasn't failed yet. But "god did it" as an explanation has failed again and again.
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written by William, July 09, 2010
Skeptigirl:
I take from your answer that you don't want to ask the right question. You don't want the evidence to get in the way of your religious indoctrination.


I ask questions all the time. I WANT new evidence. I also find that the evidence so far doesn't get in the way of my belief. For example, I accept evolution as fact. I never claim my belief as evidence, and I admitted that earlier. My religious indoctrination told me too much of the how that goes against the scientific evidence we now have. So far, nothing in science has eliminated the possibility that my God is real. (I could get into a rather lengthy explanation of this. Suffice to say, my God is a more universal god than the ones taught by religious institutions.)

Certain people in this thread will criticize and put down those who have a belief in God or a god. Even though, as pointed out, that belief does not impede one's skepticism.
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written by wdunlap, July 09, 2010
Skeptigirl,
No, I am not arguing against my argument, only the ancient reasoning for gods. In my case, I feel I have a fairly solid argument why the necessity for a creator is possible. Just because other creator hypothesis has failed doesn't automatically make my argument invalid.

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written by wdunlap, July 09, 2010
skeptigirl,
So long as there are valid arguments for a creator, which I feel I have, you cannot outright dismiss it. There are two possibilities. One,matter appeared like magic out of nothing without a cause and exploded into the big bang, or two,a supernatural being was required since you cannot produce matter without a cause and you cannot get a cause out of nothing. Also, the antropic princple indicates that a creator may be a necessity because the odds of constants for 4 forces have an extremly narrow range for life to exist. Therefore, for someone to state that there is no creator when they have no proof would have to be basing this belief on FAITH.
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written by Skeptic Ginger (aka Skeptigirl, sorry, I've forgotten to correct the name a couple times), July 09, 2010
written by William, July 09, 2010
...So far, nothing in science has eliminated the possibility that my God is real. (I could get into a rather lengthy explanation of this. Suffice to say, my God is a more universal god than the ones taught by religious institutions.)
You have not addressed the evidence that supports the conclusion your god, like all other gods, is a mythical being. You are ignoring the evidence all gods are mythical beings and choosing to maintain your god belief based on the argument one cannot prove there are no gods. I can't prove there are no Leprechauns either, but why should I need to?

written by William
Certain people in this thread will criticize and put down those who have a belief in God or a god. Even though, as pointed out, that belief does not impede one's skepticism.
I understand your complaint, but keep in mind that criticizing or challenging a person's beliefs is not the same as criticizing the person. I don't object to the key point of the thread that we should be able to accept skeptics who also believe in a god. Like I said, I doubt any of us are 'true skeptics'.

And yet, if I as a skeptic challenge an individual's god belief, I've somehow stepped into the territory of impolite criticism. If I make a statement that the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion god beliefs are irrational, I become an intolerant atheist, a proselytizer. If I said the same thing about homeopathy would I be proselytizing?

It's fine if we discuss the mythical nature of god beliefs as long as we sidestep the elephant in the room. That elephant is the double standard some skeptics apply to god beliefs.

Here are the points I think are worth making:

1) Treating god beliefs differently than we treat other unsupportable claims is a double standard.
2) Allowing a double standard for god beliefs makes one look hypocritical when teaching or promoting critical thinking skills and the scientific process.
3) Defining a separate category of 'faith based beliefs' and claiming god beliefs satisfy some 'spiritual need' that an evidence based world view does not satisfy, is an arbitrarily manufactured rationale that serves the political purpose of sidestepping this skeptical blind spot.

Skeptics shouldn't be personally criticized solely for their god beliefs. But by the same token, skeptics should acknowledge god beliefs are irrational and not try to create a special category for god myths as if there really was a bifurcated Universe with a rational/irrational reality that is separate from the god belief/spiritual world. You may have emotional needs scientific curiosity doesn't satisfy. But such emotional needs do not equate to a need for magical and/or irrational thinking. There is nothing special about god beliefs other than the fact some of the most rational thinkers can't see the irrationality of such beliefs.
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written by Skeptic Ginger (aka Skeptigirl, sorry, I've forgotten to correct the name a couple times), July 09, 2010
written by wdunlap, July 09, 2010
skeptigirl,
So long as there are valid arguments for a creator, which I feel I have, you cannot outright dismiss it.
Yes I can. I can dismiss the existence of gods because the evidence supports the conclusion, gods are mythical beings created entirely within human imagination.


written by wdunlap
There are two possibilities. One,matter appeared like magic out of nothing without a cause and exploded into the big bang, or two,a supernatural being was required since you cannot produce matter without a cause and you cannot get a cause out of nothing.
"God did it" is no more satisfactory an answer than "we don't know" because all the "God did it" answer does is add an unnecessary layer. Great, "God did it". Where did God come from?


written by wdunlap
Also, the antropic princple indicates that a creator may be a necessity because the odds of constants for 4 forces have an extremly narrow range for life to exist. Therefore, for someone to state that there is no creator when they have no proof would have to be basing this belief on FAITH.
The claim one needs a god to explain something we have no current explanation for has been debunked again and again as evidence has provided explanations.

Science provides an explanation: Tremendous successes.
"God did it" turns out to be the explanation: No evidence this is correct yet.
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written by wdunlap, July 09, 2010
Skeptic Ginger stated:

"Yes I can. I can dismiss the existence of gods because the evidence supports the conclusion, gods are mythical beings created entirely within human imagination"

Yes, the idea of what a god or creator would be like is based on human imagination. I will grant you that because no one can know what a creator would be like, but I have given you valid arguments why I feel a creator was necessary, but you are so blinded by your self righteous belief that you are right that you will not entertain anyone elses reasoning, no matter how valid it might be.

""God did it" is no more satisfactory an answer than "we don't know" because all the "God did it" answer does is add an unnecessary layer. Great, "God did it". Where did God come from? "

I am an agnostic first which means I do not know whether or not a creator exist, but that doesn't stop me from reasoning whether or not a creator is necessary. You are stating that I should simply sit back on my duff and say, "I don't know". But since I have found valid reasons that a creator could be possible I simple refuse to sit back on my duff and say I don't know when I feel I have found possible evidence that one is necessary. The falacy of your argument that things we felt in the past were due to a god have since been proven scientifically is that that does not mean you can extrapolate that into the future for everything science doesn't know now. So long as you cannot disprove a creator, you must fall back on FAITH which is no proof at all. Science is wonderful, but it is not the end all, be all. I believe that is the trap you have fallen into.
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written by wdunlap, July 09, 2010
"Ask yourself how you would view Ms Gay if her god belief was certainty that Pe'le controlled volcanic eruptions on Hawaii. "

Your question is mute since Ms Gay did not make any such statement. All you are doing is shamelessly trying to slant what she really said in order to promote your agenda that a creater doesn't exist. You can't base your belief on proof so you base it on blind FAITH in science. Like I said, science is great, but it isn't the be all, end all that you would like us all to think.
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written by William, July 09, 2010
SkeptiGirl:
.. evidence all gods are mythical beings...


What evidence? As I have pointed out, you can't prove that ALL gods are mythical, as that attempts to prove the negative.

I also try to be consistent in my skepticism, with no double standard on my part. If anyone still thinks I am, perhaps there are some points I haven't made.
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Coming back from a trip...
written by danieljref, July 09, 2010
@Kritikos

Show me where I ever made any such point

Considering I was stating that skeptics have certain rules and say that a person that does not follow the rules is NOT a skeptic, your first comment directed to me intended to clarify that the people I quoted were invoking an epistemological rule which was not being followed by Dr. Gay and for that reason were arguing she could not be called a skeptic. This fits perfectly with what I said. Side point: You were just an example of why it wasn't pure invention. DJ and PZ were valid to show my point. I never intended to point it directly to you. Seems to me that you're the one indulging in fantasy (as if I was trying to analyze your comments instead of showing evidence for mine). I was just pointing the basis of what I said. You may even not agree with me, but that is very different than pure invention.
I "must" if I am interested in what you think, which I am not.

I was just looking for a clarification. You said any social group could be described as a religion. Well, if you really believe this, than you have to agree with me: skepticism is a religion. But, since your comment point to the direction that skepticism is not a religion, I wanted you to explain what are the differences between the two. You asked for a substantive discussion, I was just trying to not misrepresent your understanding of the situation, but if you're not interested in what I think... (which bears the question: Then why do you mentioned "a substantive discussion" to begin with?)
First you were saying that common usage itself is not an application of reason...

In this part you left out the second most important thing (to me) of the definition you adopted "to any and all ideas". You said skepticism is the application of reason to any and all ideas. Since you agreed that are somethings which are not the application of reason, looks like you're coming to the conclusion that your definition is wrong...
I fail to see that this business about the meaning of words sheds ANY light on the dispute over Pamela Gay, theism, and skepticism.

I'm not talking about meaning of words per se. Let me give you a clear example. There is a definition for the term catholic (not the point to express it right now). In theory, I could take the definition and see if someone fits it. If yes: then that person is a catholic. If not: the s/he isn't. Problem: The Catholic Church as the foundation of the catholic faith can excommunicate people. So even if you fit the definition, it is not enough. There is an entity that somehow confirms it. Can skeptics also do this?
All that I have been trying to show is what the question is

All you've been trying to do is show me what I'm saying in different words. So what if people are analyzing epistemological rules. Catholics, muslims, jews also follow an epistemological rule. If you do not believe in God you can't be catholic/muslim/jew. The fact that there is or isn't an epistemological rule doesn't change my point: Skepticism is a religion. Based on faith (although different), rules (although different) and intolerance/prejudice (although different). Like all religions. Your argument is a moo point (if there ever was one). But it is hard to get into explanations when you either refuse to answer questions or state that they are really though and you have no clear answer about them.
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@Defaithed
written by danieljref, July 09, 2010
Yes, the definition of God will somehow settle the question. It could be said that God is the necessary being. Although it may become a little more "deep" to understand it. If you want, I can try. This is just to show that it's not either between "my name for" and "magical heaven being", even though I have to point out that I've seen some skeptics in trying to rule out God they tend to describe it.

The idea behind the question "rock hard concept" is just to show that, maybe God is completely outside skepticism pretenses, so it's pointless to try and fit God into skepticism. It would be like saying that when it comes to politics you're a vegetarian.
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written by Skeptic Ginger (formerly Skeptigirl), July 09, 2010
written by wdunlap, July 09, 2010
"Ask yourself how you would view Ms Gay if her god belief was certainty that Pe'le controlled volcanic eruptions on Hawaii. "

Your question is mute since Ms Gay did not make any such statement. All you are doing is shamelessly trying to slant what she really said in order to promote your agenda that a creater doesn't exist. You can't base your belief on proof so you base it on blind FAITH in science. Like I said, science is great, but it isn't the be all, end all that you would like us all to think.
My agenda is promoting rational critical thinking and science. It's not about the specific conclusions as long as they are supportable conclusions.

There was a point to asking one to hypothetically substitute Pe'le vs a Deist god or a Christian god. I'm illustrating the double standard applied to some god beliefs that is not applied to other equally unsupportable god beliefs.

Equating faith based beliefs to science is not a rational skeptic position. That's been addressed in past Swift articles.
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written by Skeptic Ginger (formerly Skeptigirl), July 09, 2010
written by William, July 09, 2010
SkeptiGirl:
.. evidence all gods are mythical beings...

What evidence? As I have pointed out, you can't prove that ALL gods are mythical, as that attempts to prove the negative.
I also try to be consistent in my skepticism, with no double standard on my part. If anyone still thinks I am, perhaps there are some points I haven't made.
How many god beliefs do we need to determine are myths before we can conclude there is a pattern here?
Do you deny the extensive evidence that anthropologists have compiled over the years on the subject of human god myths? Have you heard of the Cargo Cults which allowed us to observe in recent times, the development of a god myth?

You claim you care about the evidence. You state you would look at the evidence if there was any. Then you dismiss out of hand the evidence I have proposed.

Put your "you can't prove it" aside for a minute. Put aside my conclusion, all gods are mythical beings, and your conclusion, you have reason to believe in a god for a minute. Look at the evidence of humans inventing god myths on it's own merits, divorced from your complaint about the conclusions I've drawn from this evidence.

I give you Greek gods, Native American gods, Roman gods, Australian aboriginal gods, Hindu gods, Mayan, Aztec and Incan gods, Egyptian gods, Celtic gods, Norse gods, Babylonian gods, African gods, Pacific Island gods... Name the culture and you can find numerous god myths that each culture developed. You can look back in history for ancient gods and to current peoples for current god beliefs in each culture.

Were Thor, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl and Pe'le real gods or mythical gods?

At a minimum you should at least stop claiming there is no evidence that humans have over time invented thousands of god myths.

But that does leave us with the double standard I am pointing out. If you had an equal amount of evidence that life replicates using genetic blueprints, would you say that you cannot draw a conclusion about the genetic basis of lifeforms because you can't prove there are no exceptions? No. You draw a conclusion that all life is going to follow the pattern you have established occurs through overwhelming evidence. If an exception turns up, you can adapt your 'facts' regarding the role of genetics in reproduction. But in the meantime, you can indeed draw a conclusion about all life on Earth based on the pattern you have established.

Claiming one needs to prove there are no exceptions would be applying a double standard to genetic evidence that you don't apply to numerous other scientific conclusions.

By all means, keep your god belief. Just admit it is irrational and quit trying to support it by applying a double standard to the lack of scientific evidence supporting your belief.
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written by Skeptic Ginger (formerly Skeptigirl), July 09, 2010
written by danieljref, July 09, 2010.....
The idea behind the question "rock hard concept" is just to show that, maybe God is completely outside skepticism pretenses, so it's pointless to try and fit God into skepticism. It would be like saying that when it comes to politics you're a vegetarian.
Rational thinking is successful, magical thinking such as you are proposing is unsuccessful. That suggests what you are claiming is nonsense.
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written by latsot, July 09, 2010
William:

I make no claim that my belief in God is correct. I admit the possibility that I may be wrong (as does Pamela Gay). I also freely admit there are other beliefs out there--some contradictory to my Christian education. When I see that, I try to understand their beliefs and see how it fits in with my observations of the world. I accept their beliefs as theirs and try not to criticize them (i.e., not calling them "delusional", "misguided", "damned for eternity", etc.). It's called tolerance.


No, it isn't called 'tolerance'. It's called 'special pleading'. I tolerate people's religious beliefs, but I don't have to keep silent about it for fear of offending someone. I don't have the goal of offending people when I criticise their beliefs, but I don't care in the slightest if they happen to be offended anyway. Nobody has the right to not be offended and yet this is the right that very many religious people demand. They claim their religious views are somehow off-limits, simply because they say so and seem genuinely amazed when other people don't see it that way.

Demanding respect for unsupported beliefs solely on the basis that they are religious beliefs is deeply irrational and I'll have no part of it. People who believe in any kind of god are (subject to some evidence turning up) deluded and there isn't the slightest reason why we shouldn't tell them so.

What evidence? As I have pointed out, you can't prove that ALL gods are mythical, as that attempts to prove the negative.


The default position when one cannot prove something doesn't exist is *not* to assume without evidence that it does. This is breathtakingly irrational. The default position should instead be to provisionally assume that it doesn't exist, subject to some evidence turning up. Why? Because there are infinitely more things that don't exist than things that do, so it doesn't make sense to assert that any particular thing-you-have-no-evidence-for-but-can't-disprove is true.

This should be the case whether or not you are a skeptic. However, a skeptic would go further in requiring some evidence before believing something. Or, more accurately, a skeptic would require a more rigourous standard of evidence, discounting things like authority and personal revelation.

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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Skepti Ginger said:
"My agenda is promoting rational critical thinking and science. It's not about the specific conclusions as long as they are supportable conclusions."

My agenda is also promoting rational critical thinking. I have presented valid arguments why a creator might be necessary. I have stated that, if this creator exists, it would be far beyond what anyone could imagine. You keep falling back on the argument that religious concepts of a god has fallen one by one. That is true, but it still doesn't address the fact that a creator, if it exists, may have chosen not to make itself known. You state that you wish to promote rational thought, but it appears that your thinking is one sided. You are hung up on one possible view and have fallen into the trap that your view is the only rational one and that all others are, therefore, irrational. I submit that it is difficult to have rational thought when you are hampered by wearing blinders.

"Equating faith based beliefs to science is not a rational skeptic position. That's been addressed in past Swift articles."

What I was trying to get across is that I have presented valid arguments that a creator might be necessary and that you have no evidence to counteract my argument, yet you state out and out that belief in the existence of a creator is irrational. So long as you have no evidence that this creator doesn't exist, you must base your belief on faith.
You refer to past Swift articles. I haven't read them, but if you can relay them to me, I would like to see them.
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Still Not Getting It
written by DataJack, July 10, 2010
wdunlap said:
"Why is my statement false? I gave you valid reason why a creator may be a necessity. For matter to come from nothing you need a cause and when there is nothing, a cause cannot exist. Therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that a supernatural being would then be required."

I didn't say your statement was false; I said you were using a false dichotomy. That means "if "A" isn't true, then "B" must be". That totally discounts "C". You said matter cannot come from nothing, therefore a supernatural cause is reasonable. This is false. I gave you another possibility ("C"), an infinite, eternal, non-sentient universe generator. There is just as much evidence for that as there is for a god (none). There are many other evidence-free alternative origins we can posit, therefore knocking down your strawman ("matter popped into existence without cause") does not support your pet proposal ("magic guy did it"). It is NEVER reasonable to propose an evidence-free hypothesis.

Then you said:
"Since existence of nonexistence of a god or creator cannot be proven, I feel that the atheists, like the theist, are both basing their argument on FAITH."

This is wrong. I have no faith whatsoever when I speak of unicorns not existing, even though I haven't checked everywhere. We do not speak of "proof" in science, that's for maths. In science, we speak of evidence. There is no evidence for a creator god.

Then you said:
"Ah, but we are here, aren't we? Therefore, I stand by my argument that, since these constants must all be in an extremely narrow range, the possible need for a creator is a valid argument."

This is another logical fallacy, "argument from incredulity". You don't understand how it can be that way, therefore, it cannot be.

Then you said:
"How is this sloppy thinking? If somthing is so astronomically against chance then a creator is a valid possibilityt. That said, perhaps it could have been dumpb luck, but suggesting that could be construed as "sloppy thinking"."

No, you are still missing the point. To posit something unprovable to explain something unlikely is sloppy thinking. If it seems unlikely to you, look further; do not give up and say "therefore god did it". Also, you are misunderstanding probability. Over a lot of time and a lot of space, unlikely things are certain to happen. We don't know how many universes are or have been created. There is no reason to believe the answer is one. If it is a LOT more than one, then it is very likely our universe would be set up the way it is.
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Still Not Getting It, Pt II
written by DataJack, July 10, 2010
Reply to wdunlap, continued:

I said:
"That's not how science works. If there is no evidence for something, it is safe to assume it doesn't exist."

Then you said:
"I strongly disagree. Just because science is not able to detect a supernatural being, doesnot necessarily mean it doesn't exist."

This is completely, totally, irrational thinking. "Science" is not a tool in our detection kit. It is the detection kit. It's all there is; it the term we use to describe how we investigate our world. You are saying, "just because we cannot see something with our eyes, doesn't mean we cannot see it at all". Our eyes are what we use to see. Science is what we use to describe our world. To say there are "things beyond science" is to say "I don't understand science".

I said:
"No, it is a hypothesis, but it is in no way reasonable. It doesn't present mechanisms to explain anything, it is not falsifiable, no experiment or observation could support it or refute it. "God of the gaps" is a terrible argument. It is time once again to invoke "We don't know..yet". That is the only honest answer to the origins of the universe for now. It is lazy to invoke imaginary beings to fill gaps in knowledge. That way lies intellectual stagnation."

Then you said:
"According to Webster's dictionary, Hypothes implies insufficient evidence to provide mor than a tentative expanation. That is what I am doing."

We are talking science, but you refuse to use the scientific definition of one of the most important scientific terms in our discussion? For a refresher, here is the scientific definition of hypothesis, from Wiktionary:
"A tentative conjecture explaining an observation, phenomenon or scientific problem that can be tested by further observation, investigation and/or experimentation."

Then you said:
"Being an agnostic, I admit that we don't know yet, but that is no reason to sit on my duff and not try to come up with a possible reasoned explanation. And, note that I did not say "oh we can't explain it, it must be God". I gave a reasoned explanation why I think a creator is necessary. To me, saying we don't know yet is what you refer to as being lazy and leads to intellectual stagnation. I.E., saying we don't know and the automatically writing off a creator as possiblity can lead to stagnation even though we can come up with reasons why a creator may be a necessity. Science is a wonderful tool, but it is not the end all be all."

Saying, "we don't know, so let's make something up that cannot be supported by evidence" is lazy thinking, period. Science *by definition* is the "end all be all". If something exists, it can be measured; that's what existence *means*. To say something is "beyond science" is the same as saying it doesn't exist.
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written by latsot, July 10, 2010
wdunlap:
I have presented valid arguments why a creator might be necessary.


Oh dear no. You've just claimed that it's true and shook your impotent fists at anyone who disagrees. This is not the sort of thing anyone worth speaking to would call an argument.
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
"I didn't say your statement was false; I said you were using a false dichotomy. That means "if "A" isn't true, then "B" must be". That totally discounts "C". You said matter cannot come from nothing, therefore a supernatural cause is reasonable. This is false. I gave you another possibility ("C"), an infinite, eternal, non-sentient universe generator. There is just as much evidence for that as there is for a god (none)."

You say my statement is false. OK, then explain how something can come from nothing and explode in a big bang without the availability of a cause? I submit to you that if there is nothing, there cannot be a cause. Therefore, I have submitted that a supernatural intellect, could provide this cause. I also stated that the anthropic principle states that the constants for 4 forces have to be within an extremely narrow range. The odds of this happening are extremely minute. Either it happened by dumb luck or an inteligent supernatural being brought it about. You use false dichotomy when you say that A. so far all known dieties have been proven false, therefore, B. a creator cannot exist. To that I say that peoples have tried to speculate what a creator, if it existed, would be like. However, if this creator didn't care to tell anyone or have any desire to be worshipped, then these speculations, wrong or otherwise, do not prove it doesn't exist. I didn't say that my reasoning meant that a creator must be true, only that it is a possibility. You are the one who is stating that a creator definitely cannot exist.

". I have no faith whatsoever when I speak of unicorns not existing, even though I haven't checked everywhere. We do not speak of "proof" in science, that's for maths. In science, we speak of evidence. There is no evidence for a creator god."

Hmmm, I believe that science can pretty much study and determine that unicorns do not exist. On the other hand, science cannot muster evidence for a creator since it is only designed to study material things. We are left with speculating based on what we observe. In this case, I have presented two observations that have led me to suspect that a creator is necessary.

"This is another logical fallacy, "argument from incredulity". You don't understand how it can be that way, therefore, it cannot be. "

No, I am saying that I have made observations that make it difficult to suggest a natural rather than supernatural cause. But at the same time, I didn't say, as you are suggesting, that it must be the case, only that it leaves it open as a possibility. You, on the other hand, are saying that, in spite of this observation, you choose to close your eyes and refuse to accept the fact that a supernatural being could be a possible answer, and that only science will hold the ultimate answer, i.e., some sort of natural explanation. What if a creator does exist, then what?

"No, you are still missing the point. To posit something unprovable to explain something unlikely is sloppy thinking. If it seems unlikely to you, look further; do not give up and say "therefore god did it". "

First of all, I have admitted several times that I don't know. However, I am willing to speculate, in spite of lack of proof, with the added statement that that I feel this is only a possible, not an absolute answer. You said "if it seems unlikely to you". I don't think it is necessarily unlikely. However, you say to look further. I have looked further. At this point, a creator seems like a valid explanation, more so than something coming from nothing without a cause. Now, the anthropic principle constants, I suppose could have come about by dumb luck, but the odds seem against it.

"We don't know how many universes are or have been created. There is no reason to believe the answer is one. If it is a LOT more than one, then it is very likely our universe would be set up the way it is."

This argument has been made before. The problem with it is that universes are inorganic and, therefore, cannot be equated to evolution of organic creatures. Therefore, you cannot expect numberous parallel universes being "created", you used this term, with various constants until one came about with all the constants in the correct parameters.
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Data Jack,
My last comment was in response to your part I. Sorry, I forgot to address it to you.
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Data Jack state in his part II,

"This is completely, totally, irrational thinking. "Science" is not a tool in our detection kit. It is the detection kit. It's all there is; it the term we use to describe how we investigate our world. "

You said it all in a nutshell when you said that science is the term we use to describe how we investigate our world. Since a creator would not be of our world, I rest my case that a creator would not be investigated by science.

"here is the scientific definition of hypothesis, from Wiktionary:
"A tentative conjecture explaining an observation, phenomenon or scientific problem that can be tested by further observation, investigation and/or experimentation."


OK, you are correct, my hypothesis is a nonscientific one. It makes sense since science cannot test the hypothesis of the existence of a super nataural being.

"
here is the scientific definition of hypothesis, from Wiktionary:
"A tentative conjecture explaining an observation, phenomenon or scientific problem that can be tested by further observation, investigation and/or experimentation."

I was not just making something up. I gave you a reasoned explanation why I feel a creator is a possible necessity. Science is only the end all, be all, when it comes to material things that can be measured. A creator which more than likely is some sort of intelligent force or spirit, and/or in a different plane of existence, cannot be measured or detected by science, but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. In this case, science is not the end all, be all.
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Please, read more carefully
written by DataJack, July 10, 2010
Reply to wdunlap:

You ARE using a false dichotomy: you said:
a) something coming from nothing and exploding in a big bang without the availability of a cause
or
b) Supernatural guy does it

That IS a false dichotomy. You ignore other options:
c) An infinite, eternal universe generator that isn't magical or smart
d) String theory (which isn't a theory IMO, but a hypothesis) that allows for universes to pop into existence along with their own timelines..
e) ... bunches of other hypotheses without evidence.
f) Walt Disney did it
g) (most important) Something we haven't yet discovered

You claim because you can't believe (a), (b) is probably true. That is bad logic. The only one of those that is logical to accept is (g). The others are all equally unsupported. Accepting a "supernatural" explanation because we don't (yet) know a natural explanation is sloppy.

You then say:
"You use false dichotomy when you say that A. so far all known dieties have been proven false, therefore, B. a creator cannot exist"

First, that isn't a dichotomy, false or otherwise. And no one, me or any one else, made that claim. however this is sound logic:

Premise 1) No evidence for the existence of any deities has ever been found
Premise 2) All of the phenomena once attributed to deities (lightning, solar movement, fertility, disease, etc.) have all been found to have natural causes
Conclusion: A deity is unlikely to be the best explanation for other phenomena once attributed to deities (i.e., creation)

Then you say:
"I also stated that the anthropic principle states that the constants for 4 forces have to be within an extremely narrow range. The odds of this happening are extremely minute."

This is simply not knowable. What if the constants MUST be at the values they are at? What if the universe's structure requires it? We have observed a number of universes. That number is one. In every case (one case) the constants are at those values. What does that tell us? Nothing.

Finally, I didn't equate universes to organic organisms. I simply said if there are more ten one universe, it's possible they are not identical. What that would be is not germane to this discussion.
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Correction to the quote I presented from DataJack
written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Sorry DataJack, I accidentally put down the wrong quote you made.

Saying, "we don't know, so let's make something up that cannot be supported by evidence" is lazy thinking, period. Science *by definition* is the "end all be all". If something exists, it can be measured; that's what existence *means*. To say something is "beyond science" is the same as saying it doesn't exist."

I was not just making something up. I gave you a reasoned explanation why I feel a creator is a possible necessity. Science is only the end all, be all, when it comes to material things that can be measured. A creator which more than likely is some sort of intelligent force or spirit, and/or in a different plane of existence, cannot be measured or detected by science, but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. In this case, science is not the end all, be all.
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written by latsot, July 10, 2010
A creator which more than likely is some sort of intelligent force or spirit, and/or in a different plane of existence, cannot be measured or detected by science.


Says who? You? What special insight do you have on this matter that the rest of us don't?
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written by Skeptic Ginger (aka Skeptigirl), July 10, 2010
by wdunlap
OK, then explain how something can come from nothing...?
You mean like a god?
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Response to DataJack

"That IS a false dichotomy. You ignore other options:
c) An infinite, eternal universe generator that isn't magical or smart"

Again, when there is nothing, your unverse generator cannot exist.

"d) String theory (which isn't a theory IMO, but a hypothesis) that allows for universes to pop into existence along with their own timelines.."

Again, if there is nothing, how can string theory exist.

How about H) A creator caused it all to come about.

You say that a supernatural being is sloppy, but that sounds like a double standard. I can also say that saying a supernatural being couldn't exist is sloppy too.

"First, that isn't a dichotomy, false or otherwise. And no one, me or any one else, made that claim."

Either you or Skeptic Ginger have stated that belief in a god is irrational, and then go on to state that all ancient gods have been proven false. No, you are wrong. Either you or Ginger have pretty much stated that a god is not an option.

" Premise 1) No evidence for the existence of any deities has ever been found Premise 2) All of the phenomena once attributed to deities (lightning, solar movement, fertility, disease, etc.) have all been found to have natural causes
Conclusion: A deity is unlikely to be the best explanation for other phenomena once attributed to deities (i.e., creation)"

I have already brought that up that it was once believed that a god pulled a flaming chariot across the sky but science has since come up with a natural explanation. I am talking solely of first cause, and have presented a logical argument why a creator might be necessary.

"This is simply not knowable. What if the constants MUST be at the values they are at? What if the universe's structure requires it?"

What do you mean it is not knowable. We KNOW that if the gravitation constant were a hair stronger, the universe would have collapsed back on itself soon after the big bang. If it were too weak, then planets would not be able to form. This is SCIENCE. If the nuclear force were too strong, then atoms would be held too tightly for compounds to form. If too weak, then the atoms would soon fly apart. You question what if the constants must be at the malues they are at? What if the Universe's structure requires it? That is exactly what I am saying. If the constants are not within extremely narrow parameters, life could not form. This fact doesn't require the constants to be within these required parameters. The existence of our univese with life requires these parameters. If any of them are out of sync, we wouldn't be here discussing it. Why is it so difficult to admit that a creator could be a possibile reason why these parameters all turned out just the way they needed to be?

"Finally, I didn't equate universes to organic organisms. I simply said if there are more ten one universe, it's possible they are not identical"

That smacks of your universe generator. But, I suppose that if there are many universes in different plains, that could be an answer. Trouble is, we still have to figure out how all these universes started out from nothing by themselves. Think about it. We are talking about all this matter coming from nothing and explosing in big bang and in more than one plain to boot. Suddenly, a creator doesn't sound all that far fetched in comparison.



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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Skeptic Ginger said:

"You mean like a god? "

Very good!!! Somebody finally gets it. :-) smilies/cheesy.gif

Look. I understand. You have been so indoctrinated into believing that a creator can't exist that it is difficult to accept that as a possibility. (Sorry, the devil made me say that.) smilies/cheesy.gif
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Iatsot,
" What special insight do you have on this matter that the rest of us don't? "

I can ask the same question of an atheist. What special insight do they have that they can defend their position without it being based on faith. Not that it proves anything, but the vast majority of humans on this earth believe in a God. Why is the paltry atheist minority so much more correct than they are?
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Poor Reasoning.
written by DataJack, July 10, 2010
Reply to wdunlap

You are still evading reason in this conversation.

Why are you allowed an intelligent, eternal creator god, but I am not allowed a non-intelligent, eternal universe generator? They are identical in evidence (none) perform the same task (creating the universe) have the same attribute that cannot exist within the universe (eternal).

I say a supernatural explanation is sloppy because every time, in the history of the world, that a supernatural explanation was posited, it has been overturned by a natural explanation. Every time.

For you to say not accepting a supernatural explanation is sloppy is, well, sloppy. There is zero evidence for supernatural events or beings. There is zero evidence for "higher planes of existence". To create a hypothesis to explain something that requires a being that has never been show to exist, that resides in a place that has never been shown to exist, and that has a property (eternal existence) that has never been show to exist is SLOPPY.

A better line of reasoning would be to say we don't yet know, but will continue to look. Positing an untestable explanation (god) is LAZY because it doesn't advance our understanding of our world. You can do, and people have done this throughout history. They are always wrong, so it is a safe bet that you are wrong now, too.

You seem hung up on "first cause" reasoning. This is not the smoking gun creationists pretend it is (Note: I am not saying you are a creationist, please read carefully). Causality occurs within our universe, because we have a time dimension. Whatever began our universe might not have a time dimension as we know it. Time may go both ways at once (past and present), may not exist, may have more than two directions, or may even oscillate. We don't know, but to say that a supernatural being is required to create our universe because everything within our universe requires a cause is...sloppy thinking, once again.
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written by latsot, July 10, 2010
I can ask the same question of an atheist. What special insight do they have that they can defend their position without it being based on faith. Not that it proves anything, but the vast majority of humans on this earth believe in a God. Why is the paltry atheist minority so much more correct than they are?


None. I claim no special insight on behalf of skeptics, I point only to our track record, which includes the entirity of science. Skeptical thought enables us to work out what's true and what isn't, which is the only way we can really know anything and the only way we can progress. If that's 'paltry', then I respect unquestioning belief even less than I already did.
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Response to DataJack,

"Why are you allowed an intelligent, eternal creator god, but I am not allowed a non-intelligent, eternal universe generator? "

Because, unless your eternal has intellect and can exist when there is NOTHING, then it simply cannot exist. If it is intelligent and exists out of space and time, then it is simply a creator god--a rose by any name.....

" I say a supernatural explanation is sloppy because every time, in the history of the world, that a supernatural explanation was posited, it has been overturned by a natural explanation. Every time."

That's because supernatural was used to explain natural things. I am talking supernatural, matter appearing from nothing. Explain how that can be natural.

I'm sorry, but you can throw around the word sloppy all you want but it doesn't make it so.

The reason I seem to be hung up on first cause is because that is where I have problems with people stating that there can only be a natural cause for matter to appear from nothing when a natural cause cannot exist when there is nothing.

Hey, watch who you call a creationists. smilies/cheesy.gif
Don't worry, I know you weren't calling me one. Creationism is a whole other matter. I simply can't understand how very intelligent people can subscribe to the literal interpetation of the Bible with belief that a creator, if it exists, could bring everything into existence about 5000 years ago in 6 days when all the evidence shows that it took billions of years. I had met a super smart outside contractor at work who used several PCs at once and who was an ex Physists who had turned to creationism. That blew my mind. But then again, he had reached a low point in his life and these people helped turn him around. So, at least he got something positive from it.
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Response to Iatsot,

"
None. I claim no special insight on behalf of skeptics, I point only to our track record, which includes the entirity of science. Skeptical thought enables us to work out what's true and what isn't, which is the only way we can really know anything and the only way we can progress. If that's 'paltry', then I respect unquestioning belief even less than I already did. "

I can't argue with that. Well said. My only comment is that it is difficult to use science to determine first cause. That is why I feel we are left with contending with intellectual reasoning, right or wrong.
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written by latsot, July 10, 2010
wdunlap:
first cause


Please. You use the phrase like a talisman. It's not an argument. I don't suppose science can have much to say on the matter since it is such a deliberately meaningless concept. Does science have anything to say about the origins of the universe? Yes, of course. We don't know how it happened yet, but we have some theories about it and we know what must have happened (very) shortly afterwards. We'll very likely learn more in time. "First cause" is nothing more than a dubious assumption, however, and it's not science's job to explain dubious assumptions. If you don't mind, we'll stick to explaining stuff we observe.

The role of "intellectual reason" in all of this is in determining things like how we can evaluate evidence and how we can know what constitutes a good reason to say we know something. And the jury has spoken. There's only one reliable way to determine whether a claim is right or wrong and you know that as well as I do.
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 10, 2010
written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Skeptic Ginger said:
"You mean like a god? "

Very good!!! Somebody finally gets it.
Wd, you are the one that doesn't seem to get "it". Your imaginary answer answers nothing. How does it satisfy you to fill in scientific knowledge gaps with the god of the gaps? Just how does that fabricated answer work in your opinion?

Wd:
How did the Universe come into existence?
God made it.
Who made God?
We don't/can't know, or, God has always existed, or, [fill in your own version].

Skeptic Ginger:
How did the Universe come into existence?
We don't yet know. It's possible the elements of the Universe have always been in existence despite the fact the concept of infinite existence is hard for humans at this time to conceptualize. It's also hard to conceptualize infinite space but there is evidence that is the case.
Did the Universe arise from 'nothing'?
No, that much we do know.
The singularity, according to the evidence we have evaluated, existed of the pure energy state of matter. As energy, no space need be occupied so the singularity could easily accomodate all the mass in the Universe. As some of the energy converted to its state of mass, a rapid expansion took place. Energy = Mass times the speed of light (C) squared. Energy and mass are the same thing in different states just like water and ice are the same thing in different states.


The second answer is supported by observable, measurable, tangible evidence.
The first answer is what primitive people who didn't have the benefit of scientific observation made up.
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Round and round the mulberry bush....
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 10, 2010
wdunlap:
What special insight do they have that they can defend their position without it being based on faith.
They have evidence all gods evaluated to date have turned out to be mythical beings invented by humans. You continue to avoid addressing the double standard you are applying to your god belief that would be unreasonable if applied to any number of other things we draw conclusions about when there is overwhelming evidence of a repeating pattern, and absolutely no evidence of another explanation for god beliefs. Can you at least address or try to justify your application of a double standard?

wdunlap:
Either you or Skeptic Ginger have stated that belief in a god is irrational, and then go on to state that all ancient gods have been proven false. No, you are wrong. Either you or Ginger have pretty much stated that a god is not an option.
Can you identify a single "ancient god" that there is evidence was not a mythical god and tell us what that evidence is?

wdunlap:
the vast majority of humans on this earth believe in a God. Why is the paltry atheist minority so much more correct than they are?
God beliefs arose and became established before the collective human mind developed more sophisticated methods of careful observation. The fact careful observation has not yet replaced primitive magical thinking does not worry me. I wish the process would move a bit faster, but the reality is what it is.

As for evidence of who is right and why it is inevitable that science will eventually replace magical thinking, one need only look at the success of scientific observation and rational thinking compared to the lack of success of magical thinking, prayer and rituals.

wdunlap:
The reason I seem to be hung up on first cause is because that is where I have problems with people stating that there can only be a natural cause for matter to appear from nothing when a natural cause cannot exist when there is nothing.
Matter formed from the pure energy in the singularity. It did not arise from "nothing". We can trace the Universe's development back to within a fraction of a second after the energy in the singularity began cooling and converting from its energy state into particle states. We know from the evidence the initial energy existed in the singularity. You, OTOH, have no evidence for your god of the gap. None, Zip, Nada.

You are proposing that a magical imaginary explanation for the existence of the energy in the singularity is more rational than simply saying one doesn't have any information about the energy/mass of the Universe before the singularity. Magical explanations are by definition not rational explanations.
wdunlap:
My only comment is that it is difficult to use science to determine first cause. That is why I feel we are left with contending with intellectual reasoning, right or wrong.
So making up a god to fill the gap is your answer? Using intellectual reasoning one notes that the god of the gaps has a reputation of 100% failure. I think you know where this is going.
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Response to Skeptic Ginger,
According to the big bang theory, the universe began by expanding from an infinitesimal volume with extremely high density and temperature. The universe was initially significantly smaller than even a pore on your skin. With the big bang, the fabric of space itself began expanding like the surface of an inflating balloon – matter simply rode along the stretching space like dust on the balloon's surface. The big bang is not like an explosion of matter in otherwise empty space; rather, space itself began with the big bang and carried matter with it as it expanded.

Nothing here about it being first energy like you are suggesting.

Your problem is that you want to take valid reasoning on my part and toss it out as imagination. Sorry, your argument fails. You are so hung up on science being the answer that you simply ignore any reasoning that could suggest otherwise.

When I made the statement "Either you or Skeptic Ginger have stated that belief in a god is irrational, and then go on to state that all ancient gods have been proven false. No, you are wrong", I didn't mean that you were wrong about all gods being proven false, but that Data Jack was wrong when he said that he and nobody made a statement that god doesn't exist. I was indicating that you and/or he indicated that god is an irrational belief and, therefore, a god did not exist.

I have already stated that those attempts at figuring out what a god would be like if it existed were not based on fact since nobody knows what a god, if it existed is like. Further, it appears that, if this god or creator exists, he has no interest in making contact or being worshipped. So, the fact that all the attempts to figure out what this god is like have been wrong does not at all prove that it doesn't exist.

Now you are putting on your prognoticator hat and making statements without evidence that science will disprove a god exist. You still aren't listening. Let me say it again, SCIENCE IS NOT ABLE TO DETERMINE THE EXISTENCE OR NONEXISTENCE OF A SUPERNATURAL BEING. There are those who claim to have had contact with God or a representative through some sort of religious experience. Can your be all, end all science deterrmine if this is merely hallucination? I doubt it. So your prognostication is faulty and your crystal ball is full of blemishes.

You state that I am proposing a magical imaginary explanation for the existance of energy. No, I am stating that my explanation is no less valid that one that states that matter or energy appeared like magic out of nothing and preceded to expand rapidly into the big bang.
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written by wdunlap, July 10, 2010
Response to Skeptic Ginger,
According to the big bang theory, the universe began by expanding from an infinitesimal volume with extremely high density and temperature. The universe was initially significantly smaller than even a pore on your skin. With the big bang, the fabric of space itself began expanding like the surface of an inflating balloon – matter simply rode along the stretching space like dust on the balloon's surface. The big bang is not like an explosion of matter in otherwise empty space; rather, space itself began with the big bang and carried matter with it as it expanded.

Nothing here about it being first energy like you are suggesting.

Your problem is that you want to take valid reasoning on my part and toss it out as imagination. Sorry, your argument fails. You are so hung up on science being the answer that you simply ignore any reasoning that could suggest otherwise.

When I made the statement "Either you or Skeptic Ginger have stated that belief in a god is irrational, and then go on to state that all ancient gods have been proven false. No, you are wrong", I didn't mean that you were wrong about all gods being proven false, but that Data Jack was wrong when he said that he and nobody made a statement that god doesn't exist. I was indicating that you and/or he indicated that god is an irrational belief and, therefore, a god did not exist.

I have already stated that those attempts at figuring out what a god would be like if it existed were not based on fact since nobody knows what a god, if it existed is like. Further, it appears that, if this god or creator exists, he has no interest in making contact or being worshipped. So, the fact that all the attempts to figure out what this god is like have been wrong does not at all prove that it doesn't exist.

Now you are putting on your prognoticator hat and making statements without evidence that science will disprove a god exist. You still aren't listening. Let me say it again, SCIENCE IS NOT ABLE TO DETERMINE THE EXISTENCE OR NONEXISTENCE OF A SUPERNATURAL BEING. There are those who claim to have had contact with God or a representative through some sort of religious experience. Can your be all, end all science deterrmine if this is merely hallucination? I doubt it. So your prognostication is faulty and your crystal ball is full of blemishes.

You state that I am proposing a magical imaginary explanation for the existance of energy. No, I am stating that my explanation is no less valid that one that states that matter or energy appeared like magic out of nothing and preceded to expand rapidly into the big bang.
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The Big Bang and/or something from nothing
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 10, 2010

Wdunlap
Nothing here about it being first energy like you are suggesting.
Descriptions of the singularity differ. Some describe it as nothing, into which matter and energy popped into existence.
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
Another misconception is that we tend to image the singularity as a little fireball appearing somewhere in space. According to the many experts however, space didn't exist prior to the Big Bang....The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know. We don't know where it came from, why it's here, or even where it is. All we really know is that we are inside of it and at one time it didn't exist and neither did we.

But other descriptions exist:
http://www.physlink.com/educat.../ae649.cfm
The Big Bang singularity is a point of zero volume, but very high mass, which makes the density infinite. This singularity contained all of the matter and energy in the Universe. The initial moment of the cyclopean explosion very well remains a mystery — however, astronomers and physicists believe that after the tiniest fraction of a second, the strong nuclear force and the electromagnetic force separated, which probably caused the Universe to begin inflating. The Big Bang itself created space, time, and all of the matter and energy we know today….There was only one Big Bang singularity, and it contained the whole Universe. ….space and time were born from the Big Bang singularity….



Extrapolation of the expansion of the Universe backwards in time using general relativity yields an infinite density and temperature at a finite time in the past.[29: Hawking, S.W.; Ellis, G.F.R. (1973). The Large-Scale Structure of Space-Time. Cambridge (UK): Cambridge University Press. ISBN*0-521-20016-4.]

The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation. In the most common models, the Universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with an incredibly high energy density, huge temperatures andpressures, and was very rapidly expanding and cooling. Approximately 10−37 seconds into the expansion, a phase transition caused a cosmic inflation, during which the Universe grew exponentially.[31: Guth, A.H. (199smilies/cool.gif. The Inflationary Universe: Quest for a New Theory of Cosmic Origins. Vintage Books. ISBN*978-0099959502.]

After inflation stopped, the Universe consisted of a quark–gluon plasma, as well as all other elementary particles.[32: Schewe, P. (2005). "An Ocean of Quarks". Physics News Update (American Institute of Physics) 728 (1). Retrieved 2007-05-27.]..

..The core ideas of the Big Bang—the expansion, the early hot state, the formation of helium, the formation of galaxies—are derived from many observations that are independent from any cosmological model; these include theabundance of light elements, the cosmic microwave background, large scale structure, and the Hubble diagram for Type Ia supernovae.


The confusion comes when one is describing the Universe which includes time and space. Prior to the BB, there was no time or space. But that is the nature of the singularity, everything exists but it does not occupy space or time. Infinitely dense, infinitely hot and so on are difficult concepts to contemplate. For example the balloon analogy makes one wonder why we need a 2D analogy. Why can't we make a model of the 3D expanding space time?

Beyond this there is no benefit in continuing this exchange about the specific science of the BB. There are no shortage of sources for investigating the current science of the BB and the current status of our understanding of the beginning of the Universe. I post the above to support my position that an evidence based evaluation of the Universe demonstrates not a single bit of evidence gods were involved.

You, OTOH, have not supported your claim that it is rational or logical to arbitrarily add a god layer to your explanation of the "first cause" as you call it. I am not the only one to point this out to you. Yet you just repeat your unsupported declaration that an arbitrary god layer is rational. It's time to agree to disagree on this issue.
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 10, 2010
My post disappeared. But seeing the duplicate post above makes me think it is still in the system. If it doesn't appear soon I'll repost it.
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Re straw men and loose ends
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 10, 2010
Wdunlap
I was indicating that you and/or he indicated that god is an irrational belief and, therefore, a god did not exist....if this god or creator exists, he has no interest in making contact or being worshipped. So, the fact that all the attempts to figure out what this god is like have been wrong does not at all prove that it doesn't exist. ...Now you are putting on your prognoticator hat and making statements without evidence that science will disprove a god exist. You still aren't listening. Let me say it again, SCIENCE IS NOT ABLE TO DETERMINE THE EXISTENCE OR NONEXISTENCE OF A SUPERNATURAL BEING. There are those who claim to have had contact with God or a representative through some sort of religious experience. Can your be all, end all science deterrmine if this is merely hallucination? I doubt it. So your prognostication is faulty and your crystal ball is full of blemishes.

You state that I am proposing a magical imaginary explanation for the existance of energy. No, I am stating that my explanation is no less valid that one that states that matter or energy appeared like magic out of nothing and preceded to expand rapidly into the big bang.
Belief without any evidence is by definition an irrational belief. You may define 'irrational' differently, but this is the definition I am using.

It isn't because god beliefs are irrational that I've concluded gods don't exist. It is because there is no evidence gods do exist, AND, because there is overwhelming evidence god beliefs arose within human imagination, not because people ever interacted with real gods.

The Deist god you describe that doesn't make it's presence known would be a god you'd have no way of being aware of. Such a god represents attempts to redefine gods to purposefully be outside the realm of investigation. Why would anyone want or need to define a god like that? Obviously, because any other definition of gods have been debunked. If a god supposedly answers prayers, one can test that. Turns out gods don't answer prayers. That is consistent with gods being no more than myths. The gross errors in the Bible are evidence gods are no more than myths. I could make an endless list.
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written by wdunlap, July 11, 2010
Response to Skeptic Ginger,

Thank you for the write ups on the Big Bang. Yes, I am familiar with the big bang described as more like a rapid expansion of a baloon than an explosion and that as the expansion occurred, space than was formed.

One of the things you quoted is:
"Descriptions of the singularity differ. Some describe it as nothing, into which matter and energy popped into existence. "

You say I have not given any evidence of a creator, and I admit I can't, only that I can look at the scientific statement that matter and energy popped into existence from nothing. I have repeatedly stated that when there is nothing, you have no cause, yet you refuse to accept this as an argument. I can only assume that you are so indoctrinated by the belief that it had to be due to some natural occurrence. I am here to tell you that I am not saying that that is not the case, only that it seems incredible that something popped up from nothing. Whether or not it adds complication as you state, is not the point. In order for matter and energy to pop up from NOTHING, you need a cause and if you have nothing, there is no cause available to you. In that case, I presented the possibility that the only way you can get that cause is from a creator.

You are correct that to continue this discussion would be to go around in circles. However, I very much enjoyed our discussion and appreciate the chance to present my views. Thank you.
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written by wdunlap, July 11, 2010
Response to Skeptic Ginger,
Yeah, I see what you mean. I have email with your post, but I don't see the post here.

"Belief without any evidence is by definition an irrational belief."

Whether or not I have evidence, I have presented reasons why something from nothing might require a creator. In that case, the above can also be applied to someone stating that a creator does not exist, since you have no evidence. Therefore, this can also be described as an irrational belief as well.

I agree that a Deist god who doesn't make its presence known would be a god you'd have no way of being aware of. My point exactly. I also agree that there have been scientific studies that indicate that prayers do not work. However, there are supposedly those who have claimed to be healed of something doctors said could not be healed. What is interesting is that there is evidence of discarded crutches in the ancient temples of the Egyption Goddess Isis. What is the explanation? Power of possitive thinking? Perhaps. I suppose you could argue that no one has had a missing limb replaced.

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More loose ends
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 11, 2010
Wdunlap,
I too have enjoyed the discussion.

I have repeatedly stated that when there is nothing, you have no cause, yet you refuse to accept this as an argument. I can only assume that you are so indoctrinated by the belief that it had to be due to some natural occurrence. I am here to tell you that I am not saying that that is not the case, only that it seems incredible that something popped up from nothing.
If you are suggesting that because you have not made your case, it must be because I'm unwilling to consider it, that would be a false assumption on your part.

Now I know you don't agree and believe your position is supported. Where it falls short, however, is your "first cause" argument fails, not because you are unsatisfied with the "science hasn't answered yet" answer. Your argument fails because you cannot explain the "first cause" for the very god you are attributing the Universe first cause to. Have you heard the expression, "it's turtles all the way down"?.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever", said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"[Hawking, Stephen (198smilies/cool.gif. A Brief History of Time]

As for the Universe popping into existence, your concept has problems. In conceptualizing space-time, the model is of a beginning. In addition the concept is that there is nothing outside of the Universe. That does not mean, empty space, it means literally nothing exists outside of the Universe (as far as we know because there are hypotheses that other universes could exist). This is merely a model that is consistent with the observable data. It describes a universe with no center and no edges. One uses the 2D surface of a balloon to conceptualize the model.
In the balloon model, if one travels in one direction, rather than reaching an edge, one returns to one's starting place. We are not sure that is a correct model. It could be that one simply never reaches the edge. As you travel in a direct line, you never overtake the rate of expansion. Or maybe the Universe is simply infinite.
All of these concepts are inadequate. If something began from one size and expands, that suggests an edge and a center. And the Universe has at least 3 spatial dimensions, not 2.
When some people describe their conceptualization of this model, they describe the key part that the Universe didn't exist until the BB. That conceptualization focuses on the nature of the space-time and a universe with no center and no edge.
There are other parts to the conceptualization of the model, however. The singularity in the model, for example, is not 'nothing'. It is an infinitely dense, infinitely small collection of all the matter and energy in the Universe. Just as in the model, 'nothing' outside of the Universe is truly 'nothing' and not empty space, 'infinitely small and infinitely dense' is not merely a description of something very dense and very small. It is a description of something which contains every single thing in the Universe taking up no space at all.
The problem I have with your view of this universe space-time model, is you are taking limited descriptions of the model and translating that into a conceptualization that makes sense to you. What you need to consider is that we don't know what preceded the singularity, or exactly what the singularity consisted of (because the math formula breaks down just before the singularity).
The Universe had no space before the BB, but that doesn't mean there was nothing there and then there was. It means our conceptual models of the beginning of the Universe are inadequate. Our life experiences don't include some of the things we need to conceptualize the Universe.
I highly recommend you read a very short book called "Flatland". It's a story of a 2 dimensional world intersecting a 3D world. The people in Flatland experience things from the 3D world popping into existence and disappearing. In the 3D world one could see the entire object and could therefore conceptualize what the 2D world occupants could not conceptualize.
The point I'm making is we don't know that the Universe "popped" into existence. Just as the people in Flatland could not see the 3rd dimension and thus experienced objects appearing and disappearing, in reality the objects indeed existed before and after they could be seen. It's your concept of space-time that is confusing you. Space popped into existence and time began at a finite point. What existed before space began expanding was not "nothing", it was something outside of our observable view.
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part 2
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 11, 2010
However, there are supposedly those who have claimed to be healed of something doctors said could not be healed. What is interesting is that there is evidence of discarded crutches in the ancient temples of the Egyption Goddess Isis.
And yet there are no limb protheses left behind at Lourdes or Medjugorje. Is there some reason the gods choose not to perform irrefutable miracles like regrowing a severed limb? Modern medicine has plenty of evidence of seemingly miraculous events like spontaneous tumor regression. No prayers or magic is required.
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written by wdunlap, July 11, 2010
Response to Skeptic Ginger,

I admit that explaining where a creator would come from if our universe doesn't exist could be a problem, however, you mentioned the possibility of other universes. The creator could exist in a different universe or somehow outside of space and time or somewhere we cannot comprehend. In any case, probably undectectable.

You mention the possibility that though the universe had no space, that doesn't mean that there was nothing there and then there was. This is a good point. It makes more sense then to say there was nothing and then there was something. As long as there is something, then a cause can exist that resulted in the big bang. Quantum Mechanics can then be involved. That I can buy. However, I'm still foggy how something could have exploded into a universe without intellect directing it. Also, we still have the Anthropic Principle to deal with which still presents the possibility of the necessity for an intelligent force directing the correct parameters of the force constants. BTW, unfortunately, unlike the first cause I presented which is my idea, I got this from Kenneth Miller's book, Searching for Darwin's God. In this book, he presents one of the best arguments for evolution than any I have read so far. But he also believes that a creator set up evolution and Ken uses the Anthropic Principle as "evidence" that a creator exists. Unfortunately, he is a Christian, which I have found numerous evidence is man-made. If he had chosen Theism or Deism, he would have had more credence.

I haven't actually read the book Flatland, but have read accounts of it many years ago. Something that fascinates me is that physics claims that there may be as many as 12 dimensions.

Yes, I agree there are no limb protheses left behind at Lourdes. Hmmm, you don't suppose that we are giving a god too much credit for what it can do. Maybe it can only heal what exists and when a limb is missing it cannot replace it. After all, the Bible claims the creator did it all in 6 days, but evidence shows that things came about very slowly over billions of years. Still, with all those going to Lourdes, only a minute few are healed. The Catholic Church is careful to weed out only those cases that they believe authentic and appear to have had to have come about by supernatural cause. I admit that I am not completely convinced, but who knows?

OK, a little comic relief. We have a psychic Octopus named Paul. Before each world cup game, the owner put a flag for each team on two separate boxes with food in them. The Octopus selected one of the boxes. Well, he has selected every single winner of each of the world cup teams including his last one that Spain would win. I should have placed a bet. Looks like evidence that this octopus really is psychic or extremely lucky. Which is it? One more. There was sometime ago a report of a cat at a nursing home who when he hopped onto the bed of on of the residence, that person would be the next to die. The cat never was wrong. How did the cat know? Did he smell death or was he truly psychic? Shortly after the article, the cat turned up dead. I believe someone decided that this whole business was a bit too eerie and did the cat in.
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 11, 2010
The creator could exist in a different universe or somehow outside of space and time or somewhere we cannot comprehend. In any case, probably undectectable.
All things being equal, one hypothesized out of thin air explanation for the creation of the Universe is as good as another. But all things are not equal. We are back to all that evidence people made up god myths and no evidence any real gods exist or ever existed. In addition to that, we have all the examples of the past failures of the God of the Gaps hypotheses. You are left with wishful thinking.

That's your prerogative, but you have not one single thing that supports this wishful thinking is also rational thinking. That you have a hard time contemplating a Universe that wasn't created by a sentient being is only evidence of your lack of imagination. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm only trying to point out that your logic here is based on your not being able to comprehend the possibilities, it is not based on any evidence a sentient creator is a logical conclusion. It's like saying, because one cannot imagine bacteria, that is somehow evidence that bacteria do not exist.

I'm still foggy how something could have exploded into a universe without intellect directing it.
Have you ever contemplated how a neutron star could have a mass greater than the Sun in a space 24 km across rotating several HUNDRED TIMES per SECOND? How about supermassive black holes? Quasars? Space-Time? That there might be 11 dimensions, not 3 plus time? Space having no edge and no center?

Why is a sentient creator even on your radar? The Universe is immensely strange. It seems bizarre to me to think the intelligence of humans suggests intelligence is any more than an extremely minor component of the Universe's complexity.

we still have the Anthropic Principle to deal with which still presents the possibility of the necessity for an intelligent force directing the correct parameters of the force constants.
This is one of the weakest rationalizations for gods out there. Whatever a universe consists of will direct where it goes. If the balances resulted in a different equation, we'd have a different outcome, a different universe. The argument you are echoing is like saying if we come across a universe with a rock, we should conclude only a sentient being could have designed a universe that contains rocks. If a universe wasn't naturally tuned to life developing, the point would be moot, we wouldn't be there. Something else, however, would be there in that universe.

I'll take this a bit further later this evening. I must walk my dogs before the light fades.

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written by William, July 12, 2010
Yes, and no.

To whoever else was voting up wdunlap and me, please weigh in.
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written by wdunlap, July 12, 2010
Skeptic Ginger,

Ok I have tried twice to send you my response, but it hasn't hit.
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written by wdunlap, July 12, 2010
OOPS, I should have been more patient. Sorry, I now have posted the same response twice.
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written by latsot, July 12, 2010
wdunlap:
In order for matter and energy to pop up from NOTHING, you need a cause


The first cause argument is very problematic. It implies that every event in the universe must have a cause (we don't know whether this is true, it's an assumption) EXCEPT for the first cause, which - for no reason at all - is assumed to be exempt. These are two pretty hefty assumptions which are required for what seems like a rather pathetic rhetorical trick, long since taken apart.

Even if we were to accept that there must be a first cause, there is no reason at all to draw the conclusion that it must be some kind of intelligence, let alone something we might be able to percieve as 'god'. It's fine to speculate, of course, and in a very restricted sense any speculation is equally valid. This, I suspect, is the crux of your argument. However, it is just another rhetorical trick: it's speculation masquerading as evidence by hiding behind two gargantuan assumptions and a flimsy argument that holds water like a net.

How can I better explain this?

If you claimed there's a god, we'd say there's no evidence and thefore no good reason to believe you. You'd reply with "Ah ha! But the universe must have been caused by something (because I say so) and that something could have been a god (because I say so). THERE'S your evidence!"

I cannot understand why anyone would be convinced by this argument when it's stripped of its pseudo-philosophical language.

Whether or not I have evidence, I have presented reasons why something from nothing might require a creator. In that case, the above can also be applied to someone stating that a creator does not exist, since you have no evidence. Therefore, this can also be described as an irrational belief as well.


Not in the slightest. You've said that a particular conception of a creator - one that cannot in any way, even in principle, be detected - cannot be ruled out. And you've used an insubstantial argument to give this some legitimacy. In fact, the argument is as necessary as it is effective. It is self-evidently true that science can't study things that can't be detected. But even so, speculating that there's a god is STILL a worse idea than speculating that there isn't one. This is not a 50/50 proposition since a god would necessarily be very complex and therefore very unlikely. On the basis of probability alone it is deeply irrational to conclude there's a god and extremely rational to conclude that there isn't.

Your problem is that you want to take valid reasoning on my part and toss it out as imagination. Sorry, your argument fails. You are so hung up on science being the answer that you simply ignore any reasoning that could suggest otherwise.


I think you need to recognise that your reasoning is *not* valid. Ginger isn't the one wearing blinders here.
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written by latsot, July 13, 2010
wd:
I haven't actually read the book Flatland, but have read accounts of it many years ago. Something that fascinates me is that physics claims that there may be as many as 12 dimensions.


The book is about the limitations of our intuition. Go ahead and read it. It's not a long book and it is very entertaining.
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written by wdunlap, July 13, 2010
Reply to Iatsot,
"The first cause argument is very problematic. It implies that every event in the universe must have a cause (we don't know whether this is true, it's an assumption)"

I remember from my science class that all reactions have a cause. So it seems to me that matter appearing from nothing would require a cause as well. An object, that is still, will remain still until a cause such as me giving it a push makes it move. However, it will soon slow down and stop. Why, what is the cause? Answer, gravity. However if I am outside a space station in a space suit and give this object a push, it will continue to keep moving until it hits something or comes into the near something producing gravity. Why, because gravity is no longer a factor.

If as you state that if we were to accept that there must be a first cause, there is no reason at all to draw the conclusion that it must be some kind of intelligence. In order for something to come from nothing, it seems to make sense that it would have to be caused by a supernatural being. Remember, there is no cause available when there is nothing, so you need to look elsewhere. I'm afraid that the best I can do is suggest that some sort of intelligent supernatural being outside of space and time would be required. Is it problematic? Sure, but something coming from nothing without the availability of a cause is also problematic. One more thing, this being could simply be a creator and not require worship, i.e., not a god.

"But even so, speculating that there's a god is STILL a worse idea than speculating that there isn't one. "

If we look at your argument based purely on science and the fact that science cannot find proof, I would tend to agree with you, however, the fact that science has no way of detecting a supernatural being, if one exists, and the fact that a first cause cannot be ruled out and the fact that the constants involved in the forces in the Anthropic Principle require such a narrow parameter that if too strong or too weak, life could not exist period, indicates that a supernatural being may be required.

Funny, I found the following stated by Aquinas which shows he beat me to the punch.

Aquinas observed that, in nature, there were things with contingent existences. Since it is possible for such things not to exist, there must be some time at which these things did not in fact exist. Thus, according to Aquinas, there must have been a time when nothing existed. If this is so, there would exist nothing that could bring anything into existence. Contingent beings, therefore, are insufficient to account for the existence of contingent beings: there must exist a necessary being whose non-existence is an impossibility, and from which the existence of all contingent beings is derived.


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written by wdunlap, July 13, 2010
Iatsot,
I will try to read Flatland, but at the moment I have a backlog of books. One of them is a book given to me by my agnostic son, titled DMT The Spirit Molecule. Essentially, DMT is produced by the pineal gland. There are controls over how much is produced, but it appears that a lot is produced and fed into the blood stream during stress such as a massive heart attack, which seems to be the cause of the out of body experiences. I was convinced that these experiences were not real, but the description of scientic studies of various subjects produced similar experiences that convinced subjects that there is a continuation of consciousness after death as well as a God. I haven't finished the book yet, so I am holding judgement. It could simply be hallucinations from the drug, but why do so many have pretty much the same experiences? Also, why would natural selection result in the pineal gland, which produces this psychedelic drug. Just doesn't make any sense, unless....... Funny, Skeptic Ginger accused me of not having an imagination, but I'm inclined to think that the ones who are lacking imagination are the atheists because they only see things in black and white.
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written by wdunlap, July 13, 2010
Reply to Skeptic Ginger (this is the one I accidentally posted twice, but now both posts were removed, so I am reposting it.

"We are back to all that evidence people made up god myths and no evidence any real gods exist or ever existed."

Don't you see? We aren't back to to made up god myths. I am not making up any gods, only suggesting one might be necessary, but not describing it, i.e., making up one. You deep saying there is no evidence. And I keep saying I know that as well as there is no evidence one doesn't exist. We are only left with intellectual pondering.

"That you have a hard time contemplating a Universe that wasn't created by a sentient being is only evidence of your lack of imagination."

On the contrary, it takes more imagination to attempt to come up with a solution rather than sitting back and saying "I don't Know".
Have you ever contemplated how a neutron star could have a mass greater than the Sun in a space 24 km across rotating several HUNDRED TIMES per SECOND? How about supermassive black holes? Quasars? Space-Time? That there might be 11 dimensions, not 3 plus time? Space having no edge and no center?"

Yes, but I don't see why that nullifies the possibility of a creator. BTW, I already mentioned in my post that Phycisists believe there are around 12 dimensions.

"That's your prerogative, but you have not one single thing that supports this wishful thinking is also rational thinking."

You still don't get it or you wouldn't say that my belief a creator is necessary is wishful thinking. If that were true, I would still be the Christian I was raised as. However, I was more interested in the truth and was thrilled, to finally find the truth even though the truth was that Christianity was bogus. Initially, I was a pure agnostic until I realized that I realized that science couldn't explain how things started. A creator, call it what you want, "god of the gaps" smilies/smiley.gif, seems a valid possibility. Unlike you who refuse to entertain such a notion, I do agree that you also have a valid argument as well, though for now I think mine is more valid.

You argue against Anthropic Principle by saying that a different universe would form, but that isn't the case. If the gravitational constant were just a little too strong, the universe would have collapsed back on itself shortly after the big bang, i.e., no universe would be formed at all period. If the gravitation force were too weak, then everything would have expanded so rapidly that no planets could be formed. Again no life would be able to exist. If the strong nuclear force were too strong, then the atoms would be held too tight to form compounds. Again, no planets, no life. If it had been too weak, then the atoms would not hold together and would fly apart. Again no universe, no life. So your argument that the universe would be different doesn't work because no life could exist. So you see, my argument that it is possible that a creator is necessary to direct these constants so that life can exist. If these constants, and there are 2 more, are not within very narrow paramenters, then life could not exist period, i.e., that includes any life forms different from us.
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written by wdunlap, July 13, 2010
This is Hell

Notice what he says about atheists and Christians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC6UrMTC73A
Enjoy. I got this over at the friendly agnostic blog.
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written by latsot, July 13, 2010
I remember from my science class that all reactions have a cause. So it seems to me that matter appearing from nothing would require a cause as well.

I hope you'll forgive me if I hesitate to accept your science class as the ultimate authority on the origins of the universe, especially since it didn't seem to teach you the difference between gravity and friction. Causality is more complex than you suppose. You're going to need something a bit more convincing than 'my teacher told me' if we're going to use it as a basis of argument about how the entire universe began.

If as you state that if we were to accept that there must be a first cause, there is no reason at all to draw the conclusion that it must be some kind of intelligence. In order for something to come from nothing, it seems to make sense that it would have to be caused by a supernatural being.


You see, here we are again. "It seems reasonable to me" is not an argument, it's pure speculation. I'm supposed to accept that a god invented the universe *solely on your say-so and nothing more*. You do understand, don't you, that even if your logic is sound (it isn't) then you still need to justify your assumptions. This you have not done.

Remember, there is no cause available when there is nothing, so you need to look elsewhere. I'm afraid that the best I can do is suggest that some sort of intelligent supernatural being outside of space and time would be required. Is it problematic? Sure, but something coming from nothing without the availability of a cause is also problematic.


According to you. Physicists would have it differently. There's a whole body of theory about how this might have happened and you shouldn't assume that because you don't know something, nobody else does. Besides, even if both arguments are problematic, they are not *equally* problematic. Think about which is the more parsimonious: on one hand, we have to accept that there's a supernatural intelligence, which somehow exists even though there's nothing for it to exist in, who created an entire universe for reasons unknown, taking great care to ensure it couldn't be detected. On the other hand, we just have to let go of the notion that nothing can happen without a cause (except the magical first cause, of course). Do you see what kind of mental gymnastics are required to fit a god into the picture? And how little effort it takes to let go of an assumption that is known to be unnecessary and unfounded anyway?

You seem to be under the impression that if we don't know every detail of some process, we're free to invent whatever nonsense we like to fill the gap and that any candidate explanations are equally likely. This is self-evidently not the case.

If we look at your argument based purely on science and the fact that science cannot find proof, I would tend to agree with you, however, the fact that science has no way of detecting a supernatural being, if one exists, and the fact that a first cause cannot be ruled out and the fact that the constants involved in the forces in the Anthropic Principle require such a narrow parameter that if too strong or too weak, life could not exist period, indicates that a supernatural being may be required.


No it doesn't. It shows at best that things like universes might be unlikely. Even if the parameters really are so fine-tuned (and this isn't quite as clear-cut as some would have it), then we don't really have a way to work out how unlikely it all is in any meaningful sense. It only has to happen once.

Funny, I found the following stated by Aquinas which shows he beat me to the punch.


He and a whole bunch of other people, yes. I assumed you knew this. Since you took that passage from Wikipedia, you must have seen the counter-arguments to the cosmological argument there and the explanation of why a first cause isn't necessarily required. You seem to have skipped over these and gone straight to Aquinas. Why you'd consider him a more reliable source on physics than modern physicists or a more convincing philosopher than scores of philosophers throughout the ages who cut their teeth working out how to dismiss the cosmological argument is beyond me. It looks very much to me as if you've chosen what you want to believe and are now desperately trying to justify it.
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written by latsot, July 13, 2010
It could simply be hallucinations from the drug, but why do so many have pretty much the same experiences?


Why wouldn't they? I would say that this is more likely to point to biological and/or cultural similarities than a magical fairyland. Why are so many accounts of alien abduction so similar? Would you consider that as evidence of extra terrestrial visitors?

What experiences are we talking about? A feeling of floating? Detatchment from the body? Tunnels? Lights? Aren't these perfectly common dreams? I've certainly had all those dreams in the past, several times, but because I wasn't close to death at the time, nobody thought to interpret this as evidence of god. Have you considered that people might only report near death experiences IF they happen to match the pattern we already think of as an NDE? For example, if I'm close to death and have an experience that feels like suddenly being purple, I'm more likely to pass it off as a weird dream, but if I feel like I've flown out of my body and soared around the room, I'll be likely to mention it because I know that fits the pattern. You say that there are a lot of similarities between (some of) these experiences. What about the differences? Why doesn't everyone have exactly the same experience? Why do only some people have near death experiences in the first place?

And why, when it comes down to it, should we consider that NDEs are evidence of an afterlife anyway? What's supposed to be happening? Are you supposed to be halfway to heaven or something? It seems a sloppy sort of system.

I'm not suggesting that near death experiences are ordinary dreams. I'm not suggesting that there aren't an unusually high number of near death experiences that match the pattern. I know almost nothing about them. I'm just saying that as soon as we start to look at these stories with a critical eye, we find that they raise an awful lot more questions than then answer. We need to answer some of these questions before we even begin to consider NDEs as evidence of god.

Also, why would natural selection result in the pineal gland, which produces this psychedelic drug. Just doesn't make any sense, unless.......


On what basis have you decided that it makes no sense? The body secretes all kinds of drugs into our systems all the time. Is it too much of a stretch to hypothesise that there's survival value in receiving a dose of a drug at times of high stress? Do you really think god is more likely than the evolution of a gland? Perhaps you should a book on evolution to your reading list.

Funny, Skeptic Ginger accused me of not having an imagination, but I'm inclined to think that the ones who are lacking imagination are the atheists because they only see things in black and white.


This is a strawman. Atheists don't as a rule see things in black and white, we have as varied perception of ideas as anyone else. Indeed, if we are atheists because we are skeptics then we are very much more open-minded than the dogmatic religious. We'd change our mind if evidence turned up. Evidence would never change the mind of a dogmatic religious person. If you want an example, think about how you selectively ignored parts of the wikipedia article on the cosmological argument. Besides, you misrepresented Skeptic Ginger's comment. It didn't say you had no imagination, it said that your imagination had failed - by your own admission - in that particular case. Ginger was even kind enough to point out that it wasn't intended as an insult.
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Flatland FYI
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 13, 2010
The first four hits on a Google search for "flatland online text" are links to free access to the full text online.
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written by latsot, July 13, 2010
Don't you see? We aren't back to to made up god myths. I am not making up any gods, only suggesting one might be necessary, but not describing it, i.e., making up one. You deep saying there is no evidence. And I keep saying I know that as well as there is no evidence one doesn't exist. We are only left with intellectual pondering.


You are missing the point. Since we have no evidence for a god, to propose that one exists is to make one up. You don't have to describe something's attributes in order to make it up.

On the contrary, it takes more imagination to attempt to come up with a solution rather than sitting back and saying "I don't Know".


I touched on this point in a previous comment. You seem to be under the impression that 'imagination' is something with a meaningfully measurable quantity, which I doubt is the case. If you make a statement such as "I can't see how that would happen" then it is a failure of your imagination in that particular case. But also, scientists aren't sitting back and saying they don't know, they are using ingenious methods - requring a great deal of imagination - to try and find out. The real failure in imagination here is to accept an explanation that really explains nothing. Deciding for no good reason that a god made the universe does not require a great deal of intellectual effort or imaginative thinking. It's a lot more like giving up than the scientific effort.

A creator, call it what you want, "god of the gaps" , seems a valid possibility.


But valid by what criteria? Certainly not the tediously silly cosmological argument, which you've consistently failed to defend. When questioned on your assumptions, you respond with "because I say so". So when you say "seems a valid possibility" you mean that it seems that way to you, not because you have arrived at that position by valid logical reasoning and verification of assumptions. Or to put it another way, you are asserting the validity of your position for absolutely no good reason whatever.

So your argument that the universe would be different doesn't work because no life could exist.


The fine-tuning of these constants is sometimes overstated. We don't know, for example, what would happen if you twiddle with more than one of the constants at the same time. There might actually be many combinations that could lead to universes that could support life of some kind. Alternatively, it might be the case that only one kind of universe can exist for some reason. We don't know yet. What we do know is that we happen to live in the right kind of universe. How unlikely is it? That is not as straightforward a question as it might seem. We don't know how many universes there are. If there's only one (at the moment) then we don't know how many there might have been in the past. If our universe is only one of many, either concurrently or consecuatively, then fine-tuning argument isn't valid. Either way, we need to know a lot more about the universe before we can use fine-tuning to argue for a god.

So you see, my argument that it is possible that a creator is necessary to direct these constants so that life can exist.


I don't think anyone is arguing with this proposition - that it's *possible* that a creator might turn out to be necessary. They are arguing that there's absolutely no reason to suspect that it's true. If your arguments were watertight, maybe we'd have reason to take the proposition seriously. If there were some evidence, then it would certainly be worth looking into. But until then, it's just another random assertion and it's perfectly safe to assume it's probably not true and not worth paying much attention to.

This is not the same as ruling out any possibility that a god might exist, it's just a sensible, rational position to take.
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As long as the discussion is still civil...
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 13, 2010
But it is getting redundant. I'm not sure my comments are an improvement on latsot's but here they are anyway.

All the quotes are wdunlap's:

"I remember from my science class that all reactions have a cause."

And yet you are fine with no cause for 'God'.

I think you might be confusing a particular law (action-reaction) in physics with some kind of universal, applies to everything law. But even if you aren't confusing action-reaction, we have yet to describe the universal law of physics that unites the large with the quantum worlds. (I'm describing this as a lay person, BTW, my field is infectious disease.) And the laws of physics don't quite hold up when one does the calculations back to the singularity. In addition we cannot make observations of events or what existed before the BB and/or outside the Universe. But these limits merely mean one cannot apply the laws of physics we have established to these situations, and one cannot at this time, know anything about what exists (or doesn't) before the BB or outside the Universe. It doesn't mean nothing existed or that there aren't laws which apply.

"it seems to make sense that it would have to be caused by a supernatural being..."

And yet you cannot finish the sentence, "… because______ " except to repeat circular reasoning.

"If we look at your argument based purely on science and the fact that science cannot find proof, I would tend to agree with you, however, the fact that science has no way of detecting a supernatural being, if one exists, and the fact that a first cause cannot be ruled out and the fact that the constants involved in the forces in the Anthropic Principle require such a narrow parameter that if too strong or too weak, life could not exist period, indicates that a supernatural being may be required."

Notice you totally cherry picked here leaving out the evidence that contradicts your conclusions.

Where did God come from? The only answer could be "It's turtles all the way down". In other words the fact you have no "first cause" for God means your answer is only a facade of an answer. You added a god layer to the question on what started space/time and the Universe, but your answer is no more than a meaningless layer.

You also left out:
that humans make up god beliefs and there is no evidence otherwise,
that there is no evidence humans ever had any real contact with gods,
that all gap god answers to date have been replaced with evidence no god was needed to explain the result,
that the Anthropic Principle argument has been debunked. (If the conditions of the Universe were randomly different we wouldn't be here. That we are here could just mean the conditions were randomly favorable to us being here.)

AND, that a god which is impossible to know would include an absence of the so called "logic" you are using to speculate such a god exists. The paradox there is one would, by definition, be unaware of a god that has no detectable presence. Yet you find it logical to be aware of such a god. (While you keep repeating, you are only saying a god could exist, you contradict that when you say its logical to you the Universe was created by a god.)


Aquina's observation is unsupportable. It's only true for the things we currently observe in the Universe and space time which began in the BB. But beyond that, there is no more logic that things were always here (in some other form than this Universe) than the logic they weren't here and now they are. In fact, an eternal past is more logical since anything you claim was the original thing that came from nothing, one can ask where did that thing come from. For that matter, where did the 'nothing' come from that the space/time expanded into? If you contemplate this question, your head will just spin.

If, OTOH, you answer the question with, "God did it", you are no further than if you just said, "whatever it was did it", because you cannot answer where god came from. Oh, you say, "God was eternally here". Then why couldn't the Universe have been eternally here in some form other than the current space/time?

"I am not making up any gods, only suggesting one might be necessary, but not describing it, i.e., making up one."

[Lewis Black persona] You just made up a god [/Lewis Black]

Not describing it? 'A god one cannot detect' is not a description?

"Unlike you who refuse to entertain such a notion"

This is a straw man. I haven't refused to entertain the god notion. To the contrary I've given it considerable thought. If we didn't have overwhelming evidence gods were human inventions, I'd be agnostic. But being the trained critical thinker that I am, I follow the evidence to the conclusion. I don't start with a conclusion and try to find evidence to fit it.

You ask the question, could gods exist?

I ask the question, what best explains god beliefs?
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written by William, July 14, 2010
No one in this thread is claiming, nor attempting to prove, that God exists. So please, back away from that counterargument.
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written by latsot, July 14, 2010
William,

I'm pretty sure that you're not the sole arbiter of what arguments people are allowed to use on this thread. Besides, it's difficult to tell what 'counterargument' you're referring to.
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written by William, July 14, 2010
latsot-
I was just tired of reading responses such as: "to propose that one [God] exists", "claimed that it's true", "assert that any particular thing-you-have-no-evidence-for-but-can't-disprove is true", "what you are claiming is nonsense", "god belief was certainty", "claim one needs a god".

wdunlap, danieljref, and I never said it was true that God exists. We made no such claim and never attempted to prove it. Yet the arguments against it (including those above and others) seem to think we did. wdunlap is merely arguing that one cannot dismiss the possibility that God is the creator (whatever attributes you want to place on that title/name/label), since we still have that "we don't know" factor. denieljref is only claiming that one can still be a skeptic and believe in a god. I am only claiming I believe in God, and have it intentionally very open as to what that means to me.
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Another post admin is taking a ridiculously long time letting through
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 14, 2010
For some reason admin is reviewing my entries, but taking a bit long to let them through. If this keeps up I think I'll stop commenting. It isn't worth it when the discussion is civil yet one is treated as if one needs supervision.
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 15, 2010
written by William, July 14, 2010
wdunlap, danieljref, and I never said it was true that God exists. We made no such claim .... wdunlap is merely arguing that one cannot dismiss the possibility that God is the creator ... since we still have that "we don't know" factor. denieljref is only claiming that one can still be a skeptic and believe in a god. I am only claiming I believe in God, and have it intentionally very open as to what that means ...
How is, "I believe a god exists" not a claim that a god exists?

This is a common viewpoint among Deists and otherwise rational thinkers who believe they have shifted their god belief goalpost off the playing field where no one can reach it. Some people define their god as not interacting with the Universe, covering its tracks, or just being undetectable. Others claim they make no 'testable' claims about their god therefore their god belief is outside the reach of scientific inquiry. Defending one's god belief by claiming the declaration of belief is not the same thing as a declaration a god exists is just another version of saying one believes in a god but makes no testable claims therefore the belief is somehow safe.

I find this untestable god claim problematic for a number of reasons.

First, there were no original historical gods proposed that didn't interact with humans on the planet. One only starts seeing these untestable god descriptions as scientific inquiry successfully challenges god beliefs, one after another.

This suggests describing one's god belief as untestable is a modern rationalization, not a valid god description. Especially since there is no way anyone can be aware of such an undetectable god if the definition is precise. If someone claims to believe in such a god, they are by definition, 'aware' and thus their god description is inconsistent.

Second, these god descriptions falsely use the fact one cannot disprove an undetectable god as evidence for a god existing. That is not what 'cannot disprove' supports.

Third, one can argue such an undetectable god is, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant. Such a god would answer no prayers and offer no salvation or eternal life. How would such a god offer any benefits for believing in said god? Said god does not communicate with people. Communicating with people is a conceivably testable claim.

Fourth, and the one aspect of the untestable god hypothesis typically overlooked, is that this god definition ignores all the evidence we have supporting the conclusion people made god beliefs up. Magical gods are KNOWN fictional characters. They exist in all cultures in some form or another. The are explainable as the result of the natural human tendency to draw superstitious based conclusions. There is no evidence for alternate god myth origins such as human contact with real gods. If if walks like a myth, talks like a myth, chances are it is a myth.


To claim you believe in a god, then deny that is a claim that a god exists, seems very disingenuous. Why not just accept your god belief is, by definition, irrational (meaning a belief in something there is no evidence exists). Why insist in jumping through twisted contortions to fit that god belief into ever shrinking scientific knowledge gaps? Why not just admit the scientific evidence is against your god belief being a valid belief, but you are choosing to ignore the evidence in this case? It's not that there is no evidence for your god, it's that the evidence supports the conclusion your god is a fictional being.

But evidence of fiction or not, believe away. That is not the issue. Claiming one's god belief is consistent with the evidence, (or not inconsistent with the evidence), is the problem.
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written by wdunlap, July 15, 2010
Response to IATSOT,
“I hope you'll forgive me if I hesitate to accept your science class as the ultimate authority on the origins of the universe, especially since it didn't seem to teach you the difference between gravity and friction. Causality is more complex than you suppose. “
What’s there to forgive except that your thinking appears to be incorrect. First of all, I wasn’t stating that my science class was giving the origins of the universe, just the concept of cause and effect. Lets look at a simple example. You have a wagon with wheels sitting on a completely flat surface. So long as there is no cause, that wagon doesn’t move. However, if a little kid gives it a push, it will then move. The cause is the kid giving it a push, the result is the movement of the wagon. Soon the wagon stops. Why, what is the cause? Answer gravity. However, if the wagon is sitting at the top of a hill, it will keep going until the hill ends. What is the cause? Again it is gravity. OK, back to the beginning of the universe. You have nothing, and because there is nothing, there is no cause available for matter to appear from nothing. Without this cause, matter cannot appear from nothing. Since you need a cause and there is none when there is nothing, this makes a good argument for a supernatural being needed as the missing cause. Why is this so hard to accept as a possibility?

“You see, here we are again. "It seems reasonable to me" is not an argument, it's pure speculation. I'm supposed to accept that a god invented the universe *solely on your say-so and nothing more*. You do understand, don't you, that even if your logic is sound (it isn't) then you still need to justify your assumptions. This you have not done.”


Yes it is speculation but with provided reason why I feel it is a possibility. Since Science has not been able to show creator or no creator, why should I accept that matter appeared like magic all by itself with no cause? So, you have no ground to stand on when you declare that my logic is not sound. I feel I have justified my assumptions based on my cause/effect argument. So far, you haven’t come up with a counter argument.

“on one hand, we have to accept that there's a supernatural intelligence, which somehow exists even though there's nothing for it to exist in”

Could be that this supernatural intelligence exists somewhere out of space and time.


You seem to be under the impression that if we don't know every detail of some process, we're free to invent whatever nonsense we like to fill the gap’

Wait a minute, I am not inventing anything. I am simply saying that, for need of a cause, a supernatural being is a viable possibility. This is more credible than something coming from nothing and exploding into a big bang all by itself and with no available cause.

“Since you took that passage from Wikipedia, you must have seen the counter-arguments to the cosmological argument there and the explanation of why a first cause isn't necessarily required.”

No, I only saw Aquinas’ arguments and was surprised to find that they were pretty much in line with what I had come up on my own. Still, I think I would be more surprised that someone else hadn’t come up with the idea before me.
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written by wdunlap, July 15, 2010
Reply to IATSOT,

You have addressed a number of points. One is the alien abduction. Funny you should mention that because a number of those given the drug found themselves being probed and investigated by very similar aliens. From another dimension? Whoohooo! Maybe. A number of them felt like they were being forcefully split from their bodies, i.e., separation of mind and body. Many saw a wall of psychedelic colors which when they went through, came up into an area of quiet and then feelings that consciousness does not die, but continues on and a feeling that they did not want to leave this place where the felt a strong feeling of love. Hallucinations? Dreams? That would be a quick and dirty answer since you would think that this was simply drug induced. But is it the correct answer? You say you have had these dreams, but did they feel like dreams or like the real thing? These people felt it was the real thing. The thing I noticed that there were similarities between the experiences. Yes the body secretes all kinds of chemicals, but why a psychedelic drug? Maybe the reason is like you said, to calm us during stress, why does this drug when given intravenously cause very similar experiences of separation of mind and body, unless there is a more "spiritual" reason? Not saying it necessarily is, but it does beg the question.
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written by wdunlap, July 15, 2010
"The first four hits on a Google search for "flatland online text" are links to free access to the full text online. "

Thanks Ginger, I will check it out when I get some free time.
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written by wdunlap, July 15, 2010
Response to IATSOT,

". Since we have no evidence for a god, to propose that one exists is to make one up. "

Yeah, but you have been indicating that by "making it up", that it solely imaginary. I disagree since if it is a possibility it isn't imaginary. Making up something indicates that it isn't there in the first place. You are still hung up on your certainty that a creator doesn't exist that you refuse to entertain the fact that you could be wrong.

"The real failure in imagination here is to accept an explanation that really explains nothing."

Well, it may not explain how it was done but it does explain how something can come from nothing without a cause.
But valid by what criteria? Certainly not the tediously silly cosmological argument, which you've consistently failed to defend. When questioned on your assumptions, you respond with "because I say so". So when you say "seems a valid possibility" you mean that it seems that way to you, not because you have arrived at that position by valid logical reasoning and verification of assumptions. Or to put it another way, you are asserting the validity of your position for absolutely no good reason whatever."

But I have arrived at that position by valid logical reasoning, you just refuse to accept it as such. I am coming up with a possible explanation how we can obtain a cause when there is nothing.

" The fine-tuning of these constants is sometimes overstated. We don't know, for example, what would happen if you twiddle with more than one of the constants at the same time. There might actually be many combinations that could lead to universes that could support life of some kind."

It appears that science would disagree with you. First of all, if you cannot form any compounds, then there is no way life can exist. If planets can't form, then there is no way that life can exist. If hydrogen cannot be formed, then there is no sun. to warm anything. You have to have every single constant for all the forces within extremely narrow ranges. Just one out of sync and life cannot exist period.

"
I don't think anyone is arguing with this proposition - that it's *possible* that a creator might turn out to be necessary. They are arguing that there's absolutely no reason to suspect that it's true. This is not the same as ruling out any possibility that a god might exist, it's just a sensible, rational position to take."

I hate to disagree with you, but I merely need look at matter appearing from nothing and exploding in a big bang with no cause in site to find your position as less than rational. But, though it took a lot of pulling on my part, at least you are admitting that a creator could be a possibility. I also agree that there may be something overlooked that could indicate that a creator was not necessary. But since we cannot yet or may never be able to prove or disprove a creator, we can only, as you say, speculate one way or the other and try to use reason why you feel that wayh.
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Don't expect anything but a civil discussion here
written by wdunlap, July 15, 2010
In response to Skeptic Ginger,

I find it more pleasant having a discussion with atheists since I do not have to worry about stepping on someone's sacred cow. With Christian apologist, they too often get upset and discussion goes out the window, which is a shame.
“we have yet to describe the universal law of physics that unites the large with the quantum worlds.”
OK, somebody has suggested that quantum mechanics could be an explanation of how something could come from nothing. This is the best suggestion I have seen so far. My only problem is that when there is nothing, then quantum mechanics most like could not exist.
“my field is infectious disease.”
Cool!!! Have you noticed any increase in infectious diseases with the indications that average temperatures have been increasing due to ‘Global warming’? I, long time ago was interested in becoming a Veterinarian, but ended up in the field of Systems Analysis. I have developed a interest in various religions, especially the Christian one, all of which show strong evidence to be man-made. Funny, in that book I am reading DMT The Spirit Molecule, there is indications that Buddhism might be legit . Funny, being born over and over until you get it right seems more sensible than the Christian belief that you go around once and either go to heaven or hell for eternity. I also have been reading many books on evolution and listening to college lectures on tape on Quantum Physics and Biology, relativity, etc.
As far as cause and effect, I gave the example of a wagon with wheels on a perfectly flat surface staying put until a little kid pushes it, the cause, or an earthquake makes it move, another cause. Otherwise, it will simply sit there. That is also my argument for something coming from nothing when with nothing there can not be a cause. You have said that maybe the universe has always existed. However, science says no. There was first this extremely compacted matter which expanded rapidly creating space and the universe.
“And yet you cannot finish the sentence, "… because______ " except to repeat circular reasoning.”

No, I simply did not complete the sentence since I have said it so many times already. I stated that since there can be no cause if there is nothing, it makes sense that a creator or supernatural being could be a possibility to fill in the needed cause.

“Where did God come from? The only answer could be "It's turtles all the way down". In other words the fact you have no "first cause" for God means your answer is only a facade of an answer. You added a god layer to the question on what started space/time and the Universe, but your answer is no more than a meaningless layer.”

God may have always existed outside of space and time. Sorry, no turtle. :-)
Have you ever wondered why science has not been able to come up with an answer where the cause came from that started the universe? It could well be because science cannot study supernatural beings and, as a result, science refuses to accept this as a possibility.

“AND, that a god which is impossible to know would include an absence of the so called "logic" you are using to speculate such a god exists. The paradox there is one would, by definition, be unaware of a god that has no detectable presence. Yet you find it logical to be aware of such a god.”

I fail to see why the fact that a god would be impossible to know would indicate that my speculation of its existence is illogical. I am presenting this a valid possibility, but admit that since I don’t have “hard” evidence, that it is only a possibility and not a given.

“For that matter, where did the 'nothing' come from that the space/time expanded into? If you contemplate this question, your head will just spin.”

Actually, I have tried to imagine nothing and it I admit that it makes my head spin.

“'A god one cannot detect' is not a description?”

I have not tried to describe this god other than to state that it could be somewhere outside of space and time.

“I ask the question, what best explains god beliefs?”

Not sure what you are asking here. Myself, I am only indicating a creator might be a necessity. BTW, I am not referring to it as a god, which is something requiring worship
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 15, 2010

written by wdunlap, July 15, 2010
…You have a wagon with wheels sitting on a completely flat surface. So long as there is no cause, that wagon doesn’t move. However, if a little kid gives it a push, it will then move….
OK, back to the beginning of the universe. You have nothing, and because there is nothing, there is no cause available for matter to appear from nothing. Without this cause, matter cannot appear from nothing. Since you need a cause and there is none when there is nothing, this makes a good argument for a supernatural being needed as the missing cause. Why is this so hard to accept as a possibility?
The problems with your logic have been pointed out, but you ignore those points and simply repeat yourself. It would help if you'd at least address the problems with your thinking here, rather than continuing to just assert that there are no flaws in your rationale.

First problem: Your analogy is flawed.

We don't know that there was "nothing" before the Big Bang. The model of the Universe is that there was no space and no time. The model is not that there was not 'something' that occupied no space. All the contents of the Universe either occupied no space, or it occupied an infinitely small space.

It is difficult for us to contemplate something that occupies no space. Just as it is difficult to contemplate 11 dimensions, infinite space, and a Universe with no center and no edges. And you are contemplating something different than the models when you imagine that 'something' which occupies no space is the same thing as 'nothing'.

Second problem: You refuse to address the 'first cause' of your 'first cause'.

If your sole rationale in proposing the 'god did it' hypothesis is the need for a 'first cause', then that same logic has to also apply to the 'first cause' of your 'first cause'. If not turtles all the way down, are you suggesting it is gods all the way down?

Or are you saying that the Universe needs a first cause, but the god you propose does not? You can't have it both ways.


Yes it is speculation but with provided reason why I feel it is a possibility. Since Science has not been able to show creator or no creator, why should I accept that matter appeared like magic all by itself with no cause? So, you have no ground to stand on when you declare that my logic is not sound. I feel I have justified my assumptions based on my cause/effect argument. So far, you haven’t come up with a counter argument.
It's is not that no counter-arguments have been pointed out. It is that you are ignoring the counter-arguments.

Could be that this supernatural intelligence exists somewhere out of space and time.
It is consistent with the evidence supported model that the components of the Universe existed outside space and time. It is inconsistent with the evidence that a supernatural intelligence was any part or quality of what existed.


I am not inventing anything. I am simply saying that, for need of a cause, a supernatural being is a viable possibility.
You are inventing a supernatural being. Describing it as a possibility or claiming it exists are both still versions of 'inventing' your explanation.

This is more credible than something coming from nothing and exploding into a big bang all by itself and with no available cause.
Except that your concept of the Universe coming from "nothing" is not exactly what the model includes. The model is that there was no space or time. Beyond that, the model does not include the nature of the Universe as it existed occupying no space. We only know the evidence is no space was occupied. While it is natural to think this also means 'nothing' existed, our inability to conceptualize a Universe occupying no space is really all we can say. But a Universe occupying no space is not the same thing as 'nothing'.
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 15, 2010
wdunlap
if it is a possibility it isn't imaginary. Making up something indicates that it isn't there in the first place. You are still hung up on your certainty that a creator doesn't exist that you refuse to entertain the fact that you could be wrong.
I'd love to resolve this disagreement, but it appears unlikely we will.

You can't see the error in your logic so you don't believe it is there. And you can't accept that I and latsot don't believe in gods because we have carefully analyzed the evidence, so you dismiss our disbelief with the straw man that we "refuse to entertain" the idea. By the same token, my statement that you cannot see and cannot accept sound like the same argument you are making against our conclusions. That's a dilemma I run into often when trying to get at the underlying cause of a disagreement.

But I know that the "refuse to entertain" charge is a straw man. I have carefully examined the evidence against gods existing. It is objective measurable tangible evidence, not speculation and 'possibilities'. The evidence is undeniable that people invented thousands of god myths. And there are many conclusions which are applied to the whole when less than "thousands" of examples all result in the same conclusion. It doesn't take a thousand tree species to recognize a trunk with bark, branches and leaves is a tree species.

As to your claim that something possible is therefore not imaginary, you appear to be operating on different definitions of imaginary and possible than I am (and I think than latsot is as well). A unicorn is just as possible as a god, so does that mean a unicorn is not imaginary? Can you tell us something that is imaginary by your definition if you don't think gods are imaginary?

it may not explain how it was done but it does explain how something can come from nothing without a cause.
Not if you have no cause for your cause.
But I have arrived at that position by valid logical reasoning, you just refuse to accept it as such.
It's not valid or logical for the reasons we've pointed out to you, not because we "refuse" to consider your ideas without a reason.

if you cannot form any compounds, then there is no way life can exist. If planets can't form, then there is no way that life can exist. If hydrogen cannot be formed, then there is no sun. to warm anything. You have to have every single constant for all the forces within extremely narrow ranges. Just one out of sync and life cannot exist period.
This argument has been debunked. You are repeating what you read or heard from a source promoting god beliefs. You cannot support this claim with actual knowledge of physics and the Universe. It's time to stop repeating it unless you can actually discuss it with more than superficial expertise.

But since we cannot yet or may never be able to prove or disprove a creator, we can only, as you say, speculate one way or the other
This ignores all the evidence gods are myths and gap gods have repeatedly been discarded as explanations. You are trying to fit your conclusion to the evidence. The scientific process and rational thinking is to follow the evidence to the conclusion, not the other way around.

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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 15, 2010
Have you noticed any increase in infectious diseases with the indications that average temperatures have been increasing due to ‘Global warming’?
Climate change means infectious disease patterns will also shift. Today's news of Dengue fever in Florida is likely to be just the beginning of a shift of mosquito species habitat that will bring tropical mosquito borne infections further north. In the tropics, such diseases will move to higher altitudes than they currently occur in. Animal populations made less healthy as their habitat changes faster than they can adapt will also leave some animals more prone to opportunistic infections. Such events can amplify pathogen numbers.

But this is only one aspect of the changing infectious disease landscape. Change is inevitable whether it is a new pathogen emerging or the results of changing environment or a disease spread as human migration or lifestyles change. The highway, for example, that was built across Uganda resulted in the HIV spreading out of a confined location to become a worldwide pandemic. The virus traveled by way of truckers and prostitution, eventually spreading via air travel. smilies/cool.gif


Back to the discussion at hand:
somebody has suggested that quantum mechanics could be an explanation of how something could come from nothing. This is the best suggestion I have seen so far. My only problem is that when there is nothing, then quantum mechanics most like could not exist.
Quantum science is revealing many things about matter, energy and 'impossibile' to contemplate things about the Universe. It provides a good example of 'nothing' not really being the same 'nothing we usually think the word means.

God may have always existed outside of space and time. Sorry, no turtle. :-)
Have you ever wondered why science has not been able to come up with an answer where the cause came from that started the universe? It could well be because science cannot study supernatural beings ...
I don't wonder why we cannot currently observe events before the Big Bang or outside the Universe with the science tools we have today because I understand that aspect of the nature of the Universe. Have you ever wondered why you accept that a god could exist outside the space time of our Universe, while at the same time you don't accept that the elements which make up the current Universe could have existed in some form before expanding into current space time?


I fail to see why the fact that a god would be impossible to know would indicate that my speculation of its existence is illogical. I am presenting this a valid possibility, but admit that since I don’t have “hard” evidence, that it is only a possibility and not a given.
How can you be aware of a god no one is aware of?

I have not tried to describe this god other than to state that it could be somewhere outside of space and time.
This is still a description.

Not sure what you are asking here.
I'm asking you to follow the evidence. Human history is full of mythical gods, is it not? Why explain god beliefs any other way than as a myth?

Myself, I am only indicating a creator might be a necessity.
Your reasoning is flawed even though you don't see why.

BTW, I am not referring to it as a god, which is something requiring worship
I realize that.
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This answer is particularly tricky and needed its own space
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 15, 2010
and, as a result, science refuses to accept this as a possibility.
If we can't come to an agreement about gods in this discussion, at a minimum you really do need to quit claiming that people who don't agree with you disagree because they refuse to consider 'supernatural' causes. This is a really annoying straw man.

The movie, "Expelled" and a lot of the people arguing against teaching evolution theory in public schools make the false claim that science excludes god hypotheses and supernatural causes for no reason.

And we don't do ourselves any favors when our own members take the unhelpful position that science cannot test for designers or test the supernatural. Regardless, that is a useless argument which only serves to confuse the lay public. It sounded good (and still does unfortunately) to many rational thinkers to put god beliefs in a separate category thus avoiding having to deal with rational thinkers who maintain a skeptical blindspot for god beliefs.

The actual scientific position is that these things are not supported by evidence. If the claim is, something exists but there is no evidence supporting that claim, then what is there to test? But when it comes to gods and supernatural things people believe in today, there actually are things one can test. I've discussed that.

You test enough god beliefs and find myth after myth. Like anything else where evidence supports the conclusion, you are looking at a pattern, you can at some point conclude the pattern is established. The pattern will apply to the group. You don't need to individually test every single thing in the group.

If/when new evidence is found one can reconsider the conclusions one has drawn about gods and ghosts and so on. One is by no means "refusing" to accept new evidence because one has drawn a current conclusion of fact any more than geologists of the day who considered it a fact that the Earth's crust was solid refused to accept new evidence for plate tectonics. Or microbiologists who considered it a fact that excess stomach acid caused ulcers refused to accept new evidence that bacteria caused ulcers.

There have been many things throughout history considered facts which turned out not to be correct when new evidence supported a paradigm shift. But would it be wise to say, it is only a theory the Earth is round? Believe it or not the 'fact' the Earth's crust was solid, and the 'fact' stomach acid caused ulcers were just as 'obvious' as the 'fact' the Earth is round.

And that's OK. It doesn't mean the scientific method is flawed and it doesn't mean we cannot operate under the assumption that certain evidence supported conclusions reach the level of being considered a 'fact'. Not everything is supported by this level of confidence in the evidence. But of the things that are, acting on these conclusions as facts does not go against the scientific process. And more importantly for this discussion, calling something a fact does not mean you 'refuse' to consider any contradictory evidence.

It wouldn't make sense to say the shape of the Earth was a theory. By by the strictest scientific principles, every 'fact' is subject to change, even the fact the Earth is round. But concluding something is a fact because the evidence is that strong does not mean one refuses to consider any other possibility. Concluding the evidence is strong enough to conclude gods are mythical beings people invented and there is no evidence to the contrary doesn't say I refuse to consider gods might exist.

It does say that you have not presented convincing evidence to the contrary. You have tried to rationalize your belief a god could exist. And clearly you believe you have done so. But what you've presented is only circular reasoning. The problem is not that scientists, rational thinkers, I or latsot 'refuse' to consider gods might exist.
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written by latsot, July 15, 2010
wdunlap:
What’s there to forgive except that your thinking appears to be incorrect. First of all, I wasn’t stating that my science class was giving the origins of the universe, just the concept of cause and effect.


You base your argument about the origins of the universe on what you remember from your science class. I was being slightly glib in an attempt to demonstrate that your argument has no evidence, a point I elaborated on later.

Lets look at a simple example.


Your continued misunderstanding of gravity and friction notwithstanding, this isn't a good example. As Skeptic Ginger has pointed out, the same laws of physics don't apply in a very young universe. They also don't apply at very small scales. There's no reason to assume they would apply at the universe's origin. Also, just because you can show that ONE CASE of effect requires cause, why would you conclude that ALL POSSSIBLE CASES do?

Since you need a cause and there is none when there is nothing, this makes a good argument for a supernatural being needed as the missing cause. Why is this so hard to accept as a possibility?


OK, two things here. First, I understand your argument. I really do. There's no need to keep repeating it. The argument and its assumptions are false as I and many, many others over the years have shown.

Second, as I've repeatedly said, I *do* accept it as a possibility. However, the probability of it is so vanishingly, ludicrously, ridiculously small that it's not worth taking seriously.

Yes it is speculation but with provided reason why I feel it is a possibility.


I understand that you personally feel it's a possibility, but that's not very helpful. It's not an argument, it's an opinion. I can't get excited about anyone's opinion, including my own. If we're to be rational, we have to go where the evidence takes us and the evidence does not point at a creator. It points against a creator, since such a thing would be so much less likely than some alternatives.

Since Science has not been able to show creator or no creator, why should I accept that matter appeared like magic all by itself with no cause?


Because we already know that things can happen with no cause, despite your science class. This is something we *can* detect. It's something we can explain. It has nothing to do with not being able to find a creator, it has to with one explanation being *vastly* more likely than the other.

So, you have no ground to stand on when you declare that my logic is not sound. I feel I have justified my assumptions based on my cause/effect argument. So far, you haven’t come up with a counter argument.


This is an astonishing collection of statements.

1. I have shown that your assumptions are not valid. Your assertion that nothing can happen without cause is just that: an assertion. It is *incorrect*. Your inability to google shouldn't be taken as validation of your assumptions.

2. There is no reason to suppose that if a first cause *does* turn out to be necessary then an intelligence must be responsible. Again, that is just an assertion without evidence and an invalid logical conclusion.

Thus, your logic is faulty and and your assumptions are faulty. What else do I have to do to demonstrate that you're wrong?

Could be that this supernatural intelligence exists somewhere out of space and time.


Could be, but then first we'd have to understand what that even means and we'd *still* have the problem of where the creator came from.

Wait a minute, I am not inventing anything.


Oh not this again. I've no desire to argue semantics with you. However, you ignored the point I was actually making, which was that you're saying that since we can't prove a god doesn't exist, then there's a good reason to believe it does. As lots of people have pointed out, this is not a valid argument. Think invisible pink unicorn. Thing flying spaghetti monster. If you can't think, google.

No, I only saw Aquinas’ arguments and was surprised to find that they were pretty much in line with what I had come up on my own. Still, I think I would be more surprised that someone else hadn’t come up with the idea before me.


So you didn't even read the full article? You didn't see the WHOLE SECTION on counter-arguments? Wow. That's a pretty extreme case of not wanting your assumptions to be challenged.
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written by latsot, July 15, 2010
wdunlap:
Yeah, but you have been indicating that by "making it up", that it solely imaginary.


No, I've said that "making it up" is to propose an idea when there is absolutely no good reason to do so.

I disagree since if it is a possibility it isn't imaginary.


WHOAH, back up there! So The invisible pink unicorn isn't imaginary? The Flying Spaghetti Monster and Russell's teapot exist, because they are a possibility? Is that really what you mean?

You are still hung up on your certainty that a creator doesn't exist that you refuse to entertain the fact that you could be wrong.


By this stage, this is just a plain lie. You know perfectly well that I've stated repeatedly that I accept the possibility of a creator, but evidence leads me to the conclusion that the probability of a creator is too small to make the idea worth taking seriously. As I've also repeatedly said, if there were some evidence, I'd change my mind.

Well, it may not explain how it was done but it does explain how something can come from nothing without a cause.


It doesn't explain a thing. It's using magic so you don't *have* to explain anything. There are *already* ways to explain how things can happen without a cause. We call it 'physics'.

But I have arrived at that position by valid logical reasoning, you just refuse to accept it as such.


It's not a question of whether I accept your logic as valid. It's not a matter of opinion. I've shown why it's wrong and you haven't shown why it's right or why my counter-arguments are wrong.

You have to have every single constant for all the forces within extremely narrow ranges. Just one out of sync and life cannot exist period.


This is the overstatement I'm referring to. If you change one of the parameters, then the universe breaks. But we don't know what happens if we change several of the parameters at once. We don't know whether there are lots of combinations of parameters that could lead to a life-supporting universe. We just know that if you twiddle one of the knobs in our universe, we'd break it.

I hate to disagree with you, but I merely need look at matter appearing from nothing and exploding in a big bang with no cause in site to find your position as less than rational.


Isn't that just because you refuse to accept that something could happen without a cause? Isn't that just what you're (falsely) accusing me and others of wrt a creator? Can't *you* accept the possibility that there might be an effect without a cause? If you can, what's stopping you looking it up?

But, though it took a lot of pulling on my part, at least you are admitting that a creator could be a possibility.


Don't flatter yourself. I have always taken that position.

I also agree that there may be something overlooked that could indicate that a creator was not necessary. But since we cannot yet or may never be able to prove or disprove a creator, we can only, as you say, speculate one way or the other and try to use reason why you feel that wayh.


I did't say that at all. It is a complete misrepresentation of my stance. We are *free* to speculate, but we are also free to do lots of other, more useful things, such as look for evidence.
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written by latsot, July 18, 2010
http://www.infidels.org/librar...alism.html

This is pertinent to the discussion about whether science can address the supernatural (H/T Ophelia Benson at Butterflies and Wheels).

The abstract reads:


I conclude that the relationship between methodological and philosophical naturalism, while not one of logical entailment, is the only reasonable metaphysical conclusion given (1) the demonstrated success of methodological naturalism, combined with (2) the massive amount of knowledge gained by it, (3) the lack of a method or epistemology for knowing the supernatural, and (4) the subsequent lack of evidence for the supernatural. The above factors together provide solid grounding for philosophical naturalism, while supernaturalism remains little more than a logical possibility.
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 18, 2010
An interesting article, latsot.

I think I might change the last line of the abstract to "supernaturalism remains little more than an illogical possibility"

The conclusion also has a phrase that confuses me. I bolded it below.

To say that we live in a natural world, situated in a universe governed by natural laws, even if these laws are considered nothing more than invariable regularities, is to say a great deal, the major points of which are specified by Kurtz:

Today, it is possible to defend ... naturalism ... on empirical scientific grounds. Naturalism thus provides a cosmic interpretation of nature. The universe is basically physical-chemical or material in structure, it is evolving in time; human life is continuous with other natural processes and can be explained in terms of them. To defend naturalism today is to say something significant, for it is an alternative to supernaturalism ... [which] is unsupported by scientific evidence.[46]

This means that we are saying--again, tentatively rather than categorically--that we do not live in a supernaturally governed cosmos, and every expansion of scientific understanding, especially the understanding of human existence, e.g., of consciousness and the origin of life, solidifies and confirms this denial.

Science, because of its reliance upon methodological naturalism, lends no support to belief in the supernatural. Consequently, philosophical naturalism, because of its own grounding in methodological naturalism, has no room for it either. While for the supernaturalist, this absence may be the chief complaint against both science and methodological naturalism, for the philosophical naturalist, it is the source of the greatest confidence in both.
If everything solidifies and confirms the Universe is natural and not supernatural, when is it time to quit calling this conclusion "tentative"?

The issue I have here is the same one I have with agnosticism. With everything else evaluated by the scientific process, one can entertain and discuss unsupported hypotheses, but we don't do so by creating manufactured categories and claim by some double standard that one would not use the scientific process to evaluate this particular hypothesis. I see no reason not to apply philosophical naturalism to any claim, including supposed 'supernatural' claims.
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Admin back to screening posts
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 18, 2010
You'll have to wait for my innocuous reply to your link, latsot. smilies/cry.gif
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ginger, s
written by latsot, July 18, 2010
You'll have to wait for my innocuous reply to your link, latsot.


Indeed. We'll have to wait longer for a comment from the JREF. This is unfortunate. And by longer I mean it won't happen anymore
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 18, 2010
I've enjoyed the discussion. My screened comment now shows above my comment about waiting.
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written by wdunlap, July 18, 2010
Response to Skeptic Ginger,
"We don't know that there was "nothing" before the Big Bang. The model of the Universe is that there was no space and no time. The model is not that there was not 'something' that occupied no space. All the contents of the Universe either occupied no space, or it occupied an infinitely small space. "


OK, I will buy this as a possibility that matter always existed. Next problem. What caused the rapid expansion to occur?


We don't know that there was "nothing" before the Big Bang. The model of the Universe is that there was no space and no time. The model is not that there was not 'something' that occupied no space. All the contents of the Universe either occupied no space, or it occupied an infinitely small space. "

Easy, the first cause, a creator, like your matter, always existed. Remember, it was the "first cause".

I'm not sure what you were saying, but the possibility of a creator existing outside of space and time cannot be observed by science, but that doesn't mean it isn't so.

"
You are inventing a supernatural being. Describing it as a possibility or claiming it exists are both still versions of 'inventing' your explanation."

According to Webster's dictionary, invent means:
a product of the imagination; especially : a false conception

To say my creator speculation is a false conception is wrong since you cannot show me that this cannot be a possibility.

"Except that your concept of the Universe coming from "nothing" is not exactly what the model includes. The model is that there was no space or time. Beyond that, the model does not include the nature of the Universe as it existed occupying no space. We only know the evidence is no space was occupied. "

I have read accounts where it is believed that before the universe, nothing existed. But I will give you that as a possibility since no one was there and can say for sure.
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written by wdunlap, July 18, 2010
"I have carefully examined the evidence against gods existing. It is objective measurable tangible evidence, not speculation and 'possibilities'."

You have merely looked at people's attempt to describe a god or mistakenly thought that a god caused something when there was a natural explanation, but this does not provide evidence that a god or creator does not exist as the first cause. Science cannot make this determination. How can you?

"). A unicorn is just as possible as a god, so does that mean a unicorn is not imaginary?"

The problem with this reasoning is that a unicorn has never shown up in fossil records. A god doesn't not leave any physical evidence of itself.

"This argument has been debunked. You are repeating what you read or heard from a source promoting god beliefs."

Show me where this has been debunked. You say I got this from a source promoting god beliefs. I got it from Kenneth E. Miller who wrote one of the best books explaining evolution, Searching for Darwin's God.

"This ignores all the evidence gods are myths and gap gods have repeatedly been discarded as explanations. You are trying to fit your conclusion to the evidence. The scientific process and rational thinking is to follow the evidence to the conclusion, not the other way around."

You are still ignoring the fact that a creator could be the answer to how all things started. Also, science is not designed to prove or disprove the supernatural.

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Dishonesty or Willful Ignorance?
written by DataJack, July 18, 2010
wdunlap said:

"According to Webster's dictionary, invent means:
a product of the imagination; especially : a false conception

To say my creator speculation is a false conception is wrong since you cannot show me that this cannot be a possibility."

Why can't theists EVER be honest? Invent also means to create something, and everybody know this. Did Thomas Edison create a false conception of a light bulb? No, he created a light bulb.

You invented a creator. You came up with the idea that a creator could be what started the universe (a god of the gaps). There is no evidence to point to it, therefore you made it up.

It is completely unneeded. There is no evidence or valid line of reasoning to say the first cause had to be intelligent, eternal, or even sentient.

Out time started with the Big Bang. Whatever caused the Big Bang, by definition, violates causality with respect to time within the Universe. Giving that "first cause" attributes that cannot be measured ("eternal", "intelligent", or "uncaused") is as foolish as saying it is "bearded", "robed", or "likes the smell of burning animals".

There is no evidence to indicate what the attributes of the first cause are. Therefore, to assign evidence is exactly equal to guessing.
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Completely Made Up
written by DataJack, July 18, 2010
You have defined a category of beings ("supernatural") whose one attribute would seem to be that they cannot be detected or measured by the one thing we use to detect and measure every thing (science). Then you populate that category with one being (god) and give him attributes that cannot be measured either (can create the universe, lives outside the universe, always existed, etc.).

Why can't you see that this is wholly unnecessary?

Also, in reference to your Unicorn quote above ("we would have evidence in the fossil record"). You failed to take into account the fact that Unicorns, too, are supernatural. Therefore, the do not die, but rather, turn into rainbows when they tire of chasing butterflies. You can't prove it's not true!

See how easy that is? And how pointless? Accepting a made-up explanation because we don't (yet) know the actual explanation is sloppy thinking. Period.
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written by wdunlap, July 18, 2010
Response to Skeptic Ginger,
I was afraid that the warmer weather would allow for increased spread of diseases. Hopefully, we will continue to hold them off. Yet, we cannot protect all the wildlife. The big problem is that microbes evolve faster than more complex life, so that is a concern. I believe I heard in the news that science has come up with a dna manipulated antibiotic against HIV.

"Quantum science is revealing many things about matter, energy and 'impossibile' to contemplate things about the Universe. It provides a good example of 'nothing' not really being the same 'nothing we usually think the word means."

Well, that is definitely a possible solution. I believe I read somewhere that some physicists believe that it can explain something from nothing. So, who knows. Still, I am not ready to simply close my eyes and say a supernatural being is not a possibility. Still, this is like saying that quantum physics is some sort of intelligent being.

"Have you ever wondered why you accept that a god could exist outside the space time of our Universe, while at the same time you don't accept that the elements which make up the current Universe could have existed in some form before expanding into current space time? "

How could elements exist before the big bang when everything was compressed with no space? Therefore, atoms couldn't exist since they would be too compressed. Ever wonder how these atoms just simply formed after the big bang and all those constants presented themselves within all those extremely narrow parameters?

"How can you be aware of a god no one is aware of?"

There are people who claim to have communicated with God. I didn't say I was aware of a god, only that one seems necessary.

"I'm asking you to follow the evidence. Human history is full of mythical gods, is it not? Why explain god beliefs any other way than as a myth?"

If a god doesn't wish to make itself known, then the fact that people have been speculating what a god is like and are wrong doesn't make this god any less likely to exist. And it certainly is not evidence that a god doesn't exist. So, your reasoning is flawed.

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written by wdunlap, July 18, 2010
"in this discussion, at a minimum you really do need to quit claiming that people who don't agree with you disagree because they refuse to consider 'supernatural' causes. This is a really annoying straw man."

Wait a minute, you have been arguing all along that you have evidence that gods do not exist, yet when I take you to task that you refuse to consider a supernatural cause, you say that is a straw man argument. Are you then saying that you accept a supernatural being as a possibility?

"And we don't do ourselves any favors when our own members take the unhelpful position that science cannot test for designers or test the supernatural."

Science cannot test the supernatural. How can it?

"The actual scientific position is that these things are not supported by evidence. "

Tell me then how science can show evidence whether or not the first cause was a creator?

". Like anything else where evidence supports the conclusion, you are looking at a pattern, you can at some point conclude the pattern is established. The pattern will apply to the group. You don't need to individually test every single thing in the group. "

The pattern you are seeing is that people trying to figure out what a god is like, have failed to do so. Science, on the other hand cannot disprove that a creator didn't start it all.

Look, I am not saying you are wrong. Science is definitely the best way to obtain natural answers, but if fails when it comes to the supernatural. I guess, if this supernatural being exists, then we can't know if it does unless it wishes to make itself known. There are those who claim to obtain spiritual awakenings. Can science determine if this is pure imagination? There are those who die on the operating table and meet a warm and loving being of light and love ones who have died. Do we know for sure that this is nothing but a hallucination? Some have claimed to meet someone who they recently saw alive only to find out when they came back to life that that person had just died. I will give you this. It could be invented. Still, when I was still a Christian, my pastor brought in people from a organization of people who had life after death experiences. Children who have drowned and been brought back, had stories of meeting a loving being of light or in a clown suit. Hallucination? Maybe, but can we be so sure?

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written by William, July 18, 2010
Science, as we measure it, is based wholly on what we understand of it. If a god exists outside of our understanding of science, we cannot measure it.
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 18, 2010
written by William, July 18, 2010
Science, as we measure it, is based wholly on what we understand of it. If a god exists outside of our understanding of science, we cannot measure it.
Science is a process. I don't use the word as you are using it here. But nonetheless, we can assess the evidence surrounding god beliefs using the scientific process and draw a reasonable conclusion that god beliefs are the result of human imagination. After investigating hundreds of god myths and determining each god is a mythical entity, after not finding any god beliefs which are not explained as human inventions, and after finding no evidence of any real gods, we can draw a reasonable scientific conclusion, gods are mythical beings.

You and wdunlap may choose not to do that. But as for myself, I have no problem using the scientific process and following the evidence to my conclusion about god beliefs rather than starting with any conclusion about god beliefs and trying to fit the evidence to that conclusion.
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The essence of the debate:
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 18, 2010
Wdunlap, there's a lot of repetition, both within your posts and with the discussion in general. I find that kind of repetition hampers getting at the real gist of the issue. So allow me to cut to the chase here.

You continue to argue your god of the gaps hypothesis stating that you personally prefer to put a god of the gap into the initiation of the Big Bang, or at a minimum, you think we are wrong to deny you that hypothesis on scientific grounds.

But you have not addressed the problem that adding a god layer provides no essential answers unless you can provide evidence of where the god you speak of originated.

And you have not addressed the problem you have of no evidence. Your hypothesis, "a gap god fits here", is a conclusion. "A gap god fits here" is not evidence.



As for my challenge to you that evidence supports the conclusion people have made up every god belief we've examined, you use filtering words for my argument like, "refuse to consider", while I use the words, "the evidence supports".

You came closest to addressing my specific challenge with this answer:
You have merely looked at people's attempt to describe a god or mistakenly thought that a god caused something when there was a natural explanation, but this does not provide evidence that a god or creator does not exist as the first cause. Science cannot make this determination. How can you?
People's "attempts to describe a god" are all we have. Do you have one single thing besides people's descriptions of gods, including your own, to support your hypothesis, "a god exists"? (Don't get sidetracked with the wording, "a god could exist". The word, 'hypothesis', takes care of the word, 'could', for you.)

"Hundreds of examples of mythical gods" is the evidence. There is a complete absence of evidence for any gods except mythical gods. The conclusion is reasonable based on that evidence and lack of contradictory evidence that, "all gods are mythical".
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written by latsot, July 18, 2010
wdunlap, you are flogging a dead unicorn.

Science cannot test the supernatural. How can it?


It can test *claims* of the supernatural. How can't it?

It can test anything that can be observed. In some circumstances, it can even test things that can't be observed. For example, if we can show that there's no need for a first cause and we can show that all god claims so far have been false, then we can conclude (with implicit acknowledgement that we might be wrong) that there's almostcertainly no god.

It's true that for a sufficiently undetectable god, science can't rule out the possibility entirely. Why would it even try?

We agree so far, yes?

But this is where you go off the deep end. You place *far* too much importance on the fact that science can't rule out a god that couldn't be observed.

The fact that a proposition can't be ruled out is not a good reason to believe it. This is why the unicorn example is a good one and you have it exactly the wrong way around with your fossils argument. There's no good reason to believe in unicorns *BECAUSE* nobody has seen one and there are no fossils.

There's no good reason to believe in a creator for exactly the same reason.

Let's spell this out again to aid your selective memory: NOBODY HERE IS CLAIMING THAT THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY THAT A CREATOR EXISTS. But people like me are saying that the possibility that a creator exists is irrelevant because there's no good reason to believe it. Or in unicorns. Or spaghetti monsters. Or orbiting teapots.

Show me where this has been debunked.


Is there a point? You've already demonstrated that you are physically unable to see large pieces of text that debunk the cosmological agrument perfectly well, both on this blog and on Wikipedia. But if you genuinely have an open mind (which increasingly seems unlikely) then why don't you just go right ahead and GOOGLE it? Why do you need someone to do your skeptical work for you? You don't even need to go further than wikipedia to get you started. And there are references! Go and do your homework, then come back and explain why you're right and those references are wrong.

You say I got this from a source promoting god beliefs. I got it from Kenneth E. Miller who wrote one of the best books explaining evolution, Searching for Darwin's God.


Miller is mistaken. He's a scientist in the same category as Gay: someone who is able to apply skepticism to some parts of his life but - for some reason - not to others.

Also, science is not designed to prove or disprove the supernatural.


It is designed to test testable claims. 'Natural' and 'supernatural' are just labels that are at best meaningless and at worst unhelpful in this context. Let's take ghosts as an example. We can scientifically test claims about ghosts and if it should turn out that they exist, what would we do? We'd reclassify them as 'natural'. As usual, you've got it the wrong way round: science doesn't study natural things, the things science studies are natural.

But this is a distraction. You *still* haven't directly answered a single criticism of your arguments other than by simply repeating the argument as if that will somehow make it true or by flatly asserting that you're right. At the very least, we've given you enough information to go and look this stuff up. You could have come back with stronger versions of the argument or - more honestly - come back and admitted that the argument has been debunked. Russell, for example, left the argument bloody in the street and his writing is superbly accessible. In fact, I'd be very much surprised if you can't find him talking about it on YouTube.
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written by latsot, July 18, 2010
You don't even need to go further than wikipedia to get you started. And there are references!


I should clarify that I was talking about the fine tuning argument here. Look, wdunlap, that's a search term you could try in wikipedia!
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written by latsot, July 18, 2010
I think I might change the last line of the abstract to "supernaturalism remains little more than an illogical possibility"


Well, technically it's a logical possibility, but I agree that your version describes the reality better.

If everything solidifies and confirms the Universe is natural and not supernatural, when is it time to quit calling this conclusion "tentative"?


Yeah, it's philosophy jargon. It refers more to the style of the argument than to how certain we can be about the conclusion. It's a bit confusing in this context.

The issue I have here is the same one I have with agnosticism. With everything else evaluated by the scientific process, one can entertain and discuss unsupported hypotheses, but we don't do so by creating manufactured categories and claim by some double standard that one would not use the scientific process to evaluate this particular hypothesis. I see no reason not to apply philosophical naturalism to any claim, including supposed 'supernatural' claims.


I agree, although there is more than one variety of agnostic. I'm technically agnostic, but I identify as an atheist. I accept the possibility of god in the same way that I accept the possibility of faries, ghosts and other nonsense. That is, I won't believe in them until I see sufficient evidence. I won't even take the idea seriously unless there's a good reason. I'm therefore as near to being an atheist as makes no difference, which is why I call myself one. The agnostics I disagree with are the ones who wrestle themselves into believing that there are equal or roughly equal chances of god existing or not. As you say, this is special pleading and it makes no sense at all.

The 'supernatural' flag is used to wave in our faces to try and distract us. "Science can't test supernatural stuff" is a meaningless statement. It's yet another get out of jail free card, the ultimate god-gap. My suspicion is that many of the people who make this argument know this. It's their way of avoiding difficult questions.
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written by latsot, July 19, 2010
That others take different approaches is something PZ doesn't seem to like.


By the way, I can't believe we allowed DJ to get away with this. He doesn't justify the statement at all. It's bitchy and dishonest. It doesn't follow from the paragraph above and it doesn't lead into the one below.

As it happens, PZ *encourages* different approaches to atheism, doesn't he?

I meant to say this ages ago but I got distracted by other people's wrongness.
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When an argument fails to convince
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 19, 2010
DJ: "That others take different approaches is something PZ doesn't seem to like."
This is similar rationalization to saying, "It's not that I'm wrong, it's that you refuse to consider my argument". It gets tricky because sometimes that is a valid statement and other times it isn't. So one can find oneself dismissing such a charge against oneself while at the same time pointing out to another the refusal to address or consider a particular point.

The human brain organizes information in such a way that everything is categorized and interpreted before it is actually consciously considered. So wdunlap, for example, cannot easily 'hear' the point that his god hypothesis is unsupported. Wdunlap categorizes his 'first cause' rationalization as 'evidence' when it is not. He has said in essence that he cannot 'hear' the information that his god conjecture is imaginary because as he described here, he equates imaginary with "a false conception".

These are just a couple examples of mechanisms by which one's brain filters the facts it encounters. What a rational thinker needs to do about this brain trait is keep the issue in the forefront. I can articulate that a 'first cause rationale' is a conclusion, not evidence on which to base a conclusion. Besides simple basing god of the gaps arguments on anything science has yet to answer, it is a common rationale or tactic by god believers to use incredulity as the basis for their god beliefs. It's not just that science has no answer, it's that the believer cannot fathom an answer without resorting to a magical god. This is the position wdunlap has taken here. And we know from previous analysis of this kind of argument that it is not an evidence based argument. Incredulity is not evidence.

Then there was the accusation I "refused" to consider a supernatural explanation. This is in the same vein as your quote from DJ accusing PZ of not liking alternative approaches. I imagine PZ, like myself, maintains the principle of requiring evidence for a conclusion. I suppose one could throw the same ball back to a theist's court and point out they refuse to accept the fact evidence is needed to base a belief on. By that token, it may be true I refuse to accept supernatural (meaning beliefs based on nothing) explanations and PZ probably doesn't like a non-evidence based approach to describing the Universe.

But the correct way to describe what I'm referring to here is not "refusing" or "dislike". The more precise description is that one does not accept unsupported imaginary explanations.
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written by latsot, July 20, 2010
Skeptic Ginger:
This is similar rationalization to saying, "It's not that I'm wrong, it's that you refuse to consider my argument".


That's the way I took it and it's a dissapointing thing to see from the JREF president. PZ isn't shy about his views. If he's said or demonstrated that he's not happy about approaches to atheism other than his own, then it's almost certainly available online and DJ could have found it and linked to it without the slightest difficulty. He decided not to, which has me scratching my head. Personally, I think the record shows quite the opposite: PZ seems perfectly comfortable with any approach that doesn't tell others how to be atheists.

Is DJ getting his impressions about PZ from the likes of Chris Mooney?

Your comparison of DJ with wdunlap seems quite right. I'd had the same thought. It seems depressing. DJ has been in charge for a while now and he hasn't exactly stamped his authority on the JREF, as far as I can tell. Phil didn't do that either. I don't understand why. I used to look forward to the Swift update every Friday. These days there's not much to look forward to.
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written by wdunlap, July 21, 2010
Reply to Iatsot, skeptic Ginger, and others.
I keep hearing that there is no evidence for a creator and disagreement when I state that science can only determine material things and that science is not equipped to determine the existence or nonexistence of a creator. So, let me ask you this. If there is a creator in spirit form, how would science be able to determine this and what would be the evidence that would show that a creator was responsible for the first cause?
There is the argument that various beliefs in gods have been shown with evidence to not exist. I agree, but we are talking about people’s attempts to put a face on their belief that a god or gods exist. We have scientific evidence that evolution is a fact, but do we have a way of knowing that the laws of evolution were not set up by a creator?
You ask for evidence that a god exists, but how can you provide that evidence if a god does exist, but chooses not to make itself known? Since you can’t, you can only look at the situation and use reasoning why or why not a god is necessary. You have chosen the latter and I the former for reasons I have already given. You cannot show evidence what started off the big bang, if not a creator, and I cannot show evidence that it was a creator. So, it appears we are at an impasse.
OK, IATSOT, at least you have admitted to the possibility of a creator, though you think it’s slim. That’s OK because that is all I have been trying to get you and others to admit. BTW, though it is only an opinion on my behalf, I do feel that I have given viable reasons for my opinion that a creator was necessary in spite of the fact that I cannot provide the evidence you and Ginger so want me to.
Iatsot, you said “Because we already know that things can happen with no cause, despite your science class. This is something we *can* detect. It's something we can explain. It has nothing to do with not being able to find a creator, it has to with one explanation being *vastly* more likely than the other.”
Like what for instance? According to inertia, something will stay at rest until a cause gives it reason to move. You keep hitting me over the head with my science class, but I read a lot and am not locked up with what I learned then. For instance, science only knew that the cell had a couple of things like a nucleus, now they know that the cell is a complete factory with numerous safeguards and billions of things that have to be just so. Hmmm, couldn’t that indicate some intelligence behind the development of these cells?
“So you didn't even read the full article?”
No, I just thought the whole article was on what Aquinas said and felt that the summation was all that was important. I went back and looked at it and found the following:
“He gives an example— "gas molecules may bounce against the walls of a container without requiring anything or anyone to get them moving."[25] According to Kaku, these molecules could move forever, without beginning or end. So, there is no need for a First Mover to explain the origins of motion.”
The problem with that is that when all matter was compressed, there most likely was no gas molecules and even if there were there would be no room for them to bounce around or to contribute to the big bang. Also, the gas molecules this physicist is talking about were probably moving about due to being excited by heat. Bet at absolute zero, they wouldn’t be moving about.
I also saw something about string theory, but when I clicked on it, I really didn’t see anything related to first cause
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written by wdunlap, July 21, 2010
Reply to IATSOP and others,
“As Skeptic Ginger has pointed out, the same laws of physics don't apply in a very young universe. “
Funny, this is the same argument that Creationists and IDers use. This is just speculation. We really cannot know this.
“I understand that you personally feel it's a possibility, but that's not very helpful. It's not an argument, it's an opinion. I can't get excited about anyone's opinion, including my own. If we're to be rational, we have to go where the evidence takes us and the evidence does not point at a creator. It points against a creator, since such a thing would be so much less likely than some alternatives.”
Funny, you state “I can't get excited about anyone's opinion, including my own.” Yet you then state “It points against a creator, since such a thing would be so much less likely than some alternatives.”
To me that is simply your opinion.
“I have shown that your assumptions are not valid. Your assertion that nothing can happen without cause is just that: an assertion. It is *incorrect*.’
I disagree. You have not shown my assumptions to be invalid. You keep saying that I have no evidence. True, because you cannot show evidence of a creator, but you can reason why one could be necessary. I have read one statement that gasses in a container are moving without a cause. I don’t agree.
“There is no reason to suppose that if a first cause *does* turn out to be necessary then an intelligence must be responsible. Again, that is just an assertion without evidence and an invalid logical conclusion.”
There is also no reason to state that it necessarily came about by no cause at all. That is also an assertion without evidence. BTW, I am not asserting this as a given only a possibility. I realize where you are coming from and understand your refusal to accept a supernatural being, but that doesn’t necessarily make you right. Science can speculate how it came about by chance without a cause, but there really isn’t any way to determine if that is really so because science cannot show evidence.
“you ignored the point I was actually making, which was that you're saying that since we can't prove a god doesn't exist, then there's a good reason to believe it does.”
That not really what I was saying. I first gave reasoning why a creator might be necessary. I was not saying that since we cannot prove a god doesn’t exist, then there’s a good reason to believe it does. I did say that science can neither prove or disprove a god. I believe we are actually talking two separate arguments. 1. First of all, I stated reasons I felt a creator was necessary. 2. I stated that science cannot give evidence for or against the possibility of this creator.
“No, I've said that "making it up" is to propose an idea when there is absolutely no good reason to do so.”
I already gave you good reason. I can’t help it if you refuse to accept it.
“WHOAH, back up there! So The invisible pink unicorn isn't imaginary? The Flying Spaghetti Monster and Russell's teapot exist, because they are a possibility? Is that really what you mean?”
I fail to see your point here. This is the classical nonsense atheists spout when they cannot come up with a viable argument against the possibility of a creator.
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written by wdunlap, July 21, 2010
Response to Iatsop and Ginger,
“By this stage, this is just a plain lie. You know perfectly well that I've stated repeatedly that I accept the possibility of a creator, but evidence leads me to the conclusion that the probability of a creator is too small to make the idea worth taking seriously. As I've also repeatedly said, if there were some evidence, I'd change my mind.”
Not a lie at all. Up to now, I have been trying patiently to get you to at least admit that a creator is a possibility. This is the first indications from you that you admit that it could be possible.
“It's not a question of whether I accept your logic as valid. It's not a matter of opinion. I've shown why it's wrong and you haven't shown why it's right or why my counter-arguments are wrong.”
You haven’t shown that my logic is wrong. You simply have hung your hat on the statement that I have no evidence which is frustrating since I admit to no evidence, only speculation based on the situation. That doesn’t make me wrong.
“This is the overstatement I'm referring to. If you change one of the parameters, then the universe breaks. But we don't know what happens if we change several of the parameters at once. We don't know whether there are lots of combinations of parameters that could lead to a life-supporting universe. We just know that if you twiddle one of the knobs in our universe, we'd break it.”
If only one constant being out of sync will not allow life, would you please explain your logic how more than one being out of sync would then allow life? Let’s see. The gravitational constant is too strong, therefore, the universe collapses shortly after the big bang. Result, no life. OK, the strong nuclear force is too strong, therefore the atoms are held too tight and compounds cannot form. Result, no life. OK, please explain how one of these two being out of sync will not allow life, but two of them at the same time, which is a double whammy against life, will actually promote life.
“Isn't that just because you refuse to accept that something could happen without a cause? Isn't that just what you're (falsely) accusing me and others of wrt a creator? Can't *you* accept the possibility that there might be an effect without a cause? If you can, what's stopping you looking it up?”
Unlike you, I am willing to entertain other possibilities, whether it be quantum mechanics or string theory, though I admit that these are rather extraordinary theories. I still feel that it is very possible that we need a cause, so I am throwing that out as a possibility. I could ask you the same thing, “Can’t you accept the possibility that there had to be a first cause and that a creator might be necessary.” However, I believe you have come around and admitted that, in spite of the fact that you think it is unlikely, a creator might be a possibility.
“Don't flatter yourself. I have always taken that position.”
If you have taken this position, you have not made it clear until now.
“We are *free* to speculate, but we are also free to do lots of other, more useful things, such as look for evidence.”
That is well and good, but I really doubt that we are ever going to be able to come up with that evidence.
OK, I need to excuse myself because I need to spend some quality time with my pet unicorn.
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written by wdunlap, July 21, 2010
". After investigating hundreds of god myths and determining each god is a mythical entity, after not finding any god beliefs which are not explained as human inventions, and after finding no evidence of any real gods, we can draw a reasonable scientific conclusion, gods are mythical beings."

Science has only determined that the various gods that were worshipped were made up or invented. I have no problem with that. We agree here. Where I have a problem is when you extrapolate this as evidence that a creator of first cause does not exist. You only have evidence that the the various gods which are worshipped are invented. You have not disproved the existence of a creator. Though you may be able to use the scientific process that these gods people have worshipped are invented, you cannot use the scientific process to determine whether a supernatural being exists or does not exist since it is in spirit form and science is only able to examine material things.
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Evidence
written by DataJack, July 22, 2010
wdunlap -
You cannot just say that science cannot examine your god because it is "a spirit form." Just as there is no evidence for your god, there is no evidence for "spirit forms". It appears as if "spirit form" is an attribute you give to an entity (god) that means only this: this entity is immune to scientific inquiry.

That is wrong. You cannot postulate an answer for a question that by definition cannot be verified. That is special pleading.

You have entirely made up everything about your god:
- Cannot be tested (spirit form)
- Violates your own reasoning (everything needs a cause - except god)
- Has capabilities to do whatever you cannot explain (is the first cause of everything else)

This is the very definition of superstition. You don't (yet) know the answer, so you make one up. Your god is no different then Thor or Apollo for their times. They too could not be tested by those who postulated they exist.

It is ok to say "We don't yet know, so let's keep looking". It is not ok to say "We don't yet know, so let's assume it is something that by definition cannot be proven or disproven". That is sloppy thinking.
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written by latsot, July 22, 2010
wdunlap:
BTW, though it is only an opinion on my behalf, I do feel that I have given viable reasons for my opinion that a creator was necessary in spite of the fact that I cannot provide the evidence you and Ginger so want me to.


But you said it was a logical necessity! Which is it?

Like what for instance?


I think I made this clear in my last post. Google, friend, google. The truth happens to be out there.

The problem with that is[….]


You have very, very missed the point. This is an argument against causality being as simple as you suppose. You made a petulant demand: “Like what for instance?” Like *that* for instance. The wikipedia article shows that you are wrong about causality. It doesn’t say anything directly about the origins of the universe, but it demolishes your insistence that everything must have a cause. If you remember, that is one of your assumptions. If your assumptions are wrong, then you can’t insist that your conclusion is right.

And what about all the other the counter-arguments, which you conveniently ignored?
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written by latsot, July 22, 2010
Funny, this is the same argument that Creationists and IDers use. This is just speculation. We really cannot know this.


Yeah, we really can. We know quite a bit about what happens with universes when we squish them up. There’s lots of theory about it. Supported by evidence. We can say things like “if a squished universe worked like this, then we’d expect to see X in a non-squished universe.” Within the framework of a hypothesis, this can constitute evidence.

To me that is simply your opinion.


You really don’t see the irony in saying “to me that is simply your opinion”, do you?

Evidence isn’t a random, floating about thing that can be co-opted to support any random assertion. It’s something that occurs in the confines of a hypothesis. It either supports a hypothesis or it doesn’t. There’s no room for opinion. And what I was talking about was evidence for a particular hypothesis. Not opinion.

Also, it’s not irony anyway.

I disagree. You have not shown my assumptions to be invalid. You keep saying that I have no evidence. True, because you cannot show evidence of a creator, but you can reason why one could be necessary. I have read one statement that gasses in a container are moving without a cause. I don’t agree.


And you finally reveal your agenda. You’ve cherry picked this one tiny part of a Wikipedia article and ignored the rest. Your argument against it is wrong for reasons I’ve already explained.

There is also no reason to state that it necessarily came about by no cause at all. That is also an assertion without evidence.


Agreed, and it is one I’m not making and have never made. Although there are many reasons to suspect that a first cause is not necessarily necessary, as I’ve argued already. And which - in keeping with your MO - you've ignored.

I realize where you are coming from and understand your refusal to accept a supernatural being, but that doesn’t necessarily make you right.


I don’t, as I’ve repeatedly said and you’ve even agreed, refuse to accept the possibility of a supernatural being. I’ve said that there’s no reason to believe that there is such a thing and you’ve yet to convincingly argue otherwise. You seem pathologically unable to utter a single sentence without a strawman.

Science can speculate how it came about by chance without a cause, but there really isn’t any way to determine if that is really so because science cannot show evidence.


Um…. You might want to read what you wrote. That doesn’t make even the slightest bit of sense.

I was not saying that since we cannot prove a god doesn’t exist, then there’s a good reason to believe it does.


But that is *exactly* what you were saying. You said it many, many times.
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written by latsot, July 22, 2010
Not a lie at all. Up to now, I have been trying patiently to get you to at least admit that a creator is a possibility. This is the first indications from you that you admit that it could be possible.


No it isn't. This is another lie. There are several comments by me on this thread that prove otherwise.

You haven’t shown that my logic is wrong. You simply have hung your hat on the statement that I have no evidence which is frustrating since I admit to no evidence, only speculation based on the situation. That doesn’t make me wrong.


Another lie. Everyone on Earth can look at this thread and see that I've done a lot more than say you have no evidence. I've showed why your logic is wrong and pointed to sources (which you have ignored) which show that it's wrong and show why your assumptions are wrong.


If only one constant being out of sync will not allow life, would you please explain your logic how more than one being out of sync would then allow life?


I suggested you google this. I still suggest it. There is lots of evidence to suggest that there are whole swathes of parameter values that would allow life. You really do only have to look it up instead of insisting that there's no evidence then demanding that I provide it. Google it. Really, that is all you have to do. The further we go in this conversation, the more you reveal that you're not willing to do even that and the more you reveal yourself as a lying creationist.


Unlike you, I am willing to entertain other possibilities


Here we go again. You've admitted that I am willing to entertain the idea of a creator....and now you're saying I'm not. And then in the next paragraph you say that I do...Which is it?


If you have taken this position, you have not made it clear until now.


And now you're back to claiming that I didn't entertain the possibility. Seriously, which *is* it?

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written by wdunlap, July 22, 2010
Response to IATSOT,

"You have entirely made up everything about your god:
- Cannot be tested (spirit form)
- Violates your own reasoning (everything needs a cause - except god)
- Has capabilities to do whatever you cannot explain (is the first cause of everything else)

This is the very definition of superstition. You don't (yet) know the answer, so you make one up. Your god is no different then Thor or Apollo for their times. They too could not be tested by those who postulated they exist. "

I have never denied that I know what a God or creator would be like. I can only speculate. I say spirit form because it can't be seen. I haven't speculated what this god would be like because that is beyond comprehension.

Webster's gives the following definition of superstition: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
I protest that I am not doing this out of fear of the unkown, however, perhaps ignorance since I admit that I don't know. I have admitted this, but you insist that I should say that and not speculate on whether or not a supernatural being could have been the first cause. No, I have not made up the fact that my god cannot be tested. I have simply stated that science cannot test it and will be the first to admit that.

"It is ok to say "We don't yet know, so let's keep looking". It is not ok to say "We don't yet know, so let's assume it is something that by definition cannot be proven or disproven"."

I agree it is ok to say "we don't yet know the answer yet, but you have already stated that you have come to the conclusion that a god cannot exist because there has not yet been any evidence found and since the gods invented so far have been proven wrong, therefore, a creator must not exist. You then go so far as to call me a liar when you take me to task on this and a Creationist. It goes without saying that this kind of name calling is unproductive. I have seen anything from you so far that states that you admit that a creator could exist. Maybe you said it before I came on the board, but from what have seen, I haven't said it me until now. And to say that you told me to do a Google, is disingenuous in that you are essentially saying that you are right and that I need to Google to see that I am wrong. The problem with Googling is that it is not always easy to know whether or not the info you find is authentic. Much of what you get is athiests like yourself arguing against the existence of a god. Heck, even Wikipedia appears to allow anyone to put their own definition there. This guy is a physicist who argues that there are "prints of God" on the universe. http://audio.simpletoremember....g_Bang.mp3

"It either supports a hypothesis or it doesn’t. There’s no room for opinion."

When you cannot show evidence one way or another, then there is nothing left but to say I don't know or I don't know, but perhaps, based on speculation, it could have occurred as follows based on the following reason.

"And you finally reveal your agenda. You’ve cherry picked this one tiny part of a Wikipedia article and ignored the rest."

My only agenda is to present my alternative view. I didn't chery pick anything, I took the first thing and I attempted to show that it was wrong thinking. The only other thing I saw was a mention of string theory, which really didn't go into enough detail, which is a problem considering how difficult string theory is to understand.

"Um…. You might want to read what you wrote. That doesn’t make even the slightest bit of sense."

It does make sense. Let me say it another way then. Science can only speculate how the universe came about by some sort of natural way rather by a creator, but science cannot show evidence of this.

You keep saying that I am presenting a strawman, but there is no denying that you are stating that a god is a myth since there is no evidence.
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written by wdunlap, July 22, 2010
IATSOT,
I appologize for not editing what I just posted to you.

It should have read as follows:

I agree it is ok to say "we don't yet know the answer yet, but I have already stated that you have come to the conclusion that a god cannot exist because there has not yet been any evidence found and since the gods invented so far have been proven wrong, therefore, a creator must not exist. You then go so far as to call me a liar when I take you to task on this and a Creationist. It goes without saying that this kind of name calling is unproductive. I have not seen anything from you so far that states that you admit that a creator could exist. Maybe you said it before I came on the board, but from what I have seen, I haven't said it me until now. And to say that you told me to do a Google, is disingenuous in that you are essentially saying that you are right and that I need to Google to see that I am wrong. The problem with Googling is that it is not always easy to know whether or not the info you find is authentic. Much of what you get is athiests like yourself arguing against the existence of a god. Heck, even Wikipedia appears to allow anyone to put their own definition there. This guy is a physicist who argues that there are "prints of God" on the universe.

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Round and round the mulberry bush
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 22, 2010
wdunlap, July 21, 2010
If there is a creator in spirit form, how would science be able to determine this and what would be the evidence that would show that a creator was responsible for the first cause?
...do we have a way of knowing that the laws of evolution were not set up by a creator?

Both are examples of starting with a conclusion. That's failed as a mechanism of investigating the Universe. Following the evidence to the conclusion has been very successful.

if a god does exist, but chooses not to make itself known?

This is the god you should, by your definition, have no awareness of. Yet you suggest awareness.

I do feel that I have given viable reasons for my opinion that a creator was necessary

The only 'reason' you've given is your belief a god is needed. That is not a reason, that is a belief.
And if we were to accept your "reason" at face value, it leaves you with the paradox you must then apply the same reason to the god. It's turtles all the way down from there.

couldn’t that indicate some intelligence behind the development of these cells?

No. It doesn't. Intelligent Design hypotheses have all failed. Rehashing why they failed can be found with not too much effort.

Re laws of physics breaking down, This is just speculation. We really cannot know this.

No, that is what the mathematical calculations show.


"points against a creator" To me that is simply your opinion.

But it is the evidence that points against, not the opinion that points against.

You don't seem to understand the difference. This statement reflects that:
you cannot show evidence of a creator, but you can reason why one could be necessary.

Reason would need to be based on evidence. Even pure logic requires some real thing to apply the logic to.


There is also no reason to state that it necessarily came about by no cause at all. That is also an assertion without evidence.

Again, applying the god of the gaps to "we don't know" has been shown to be wrong time and time again.


I am not asserting this as a given only a possibility.

You keep saying this but your belief a god does exist is clear from your other statements
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The farmer chased the weasel
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 22, 2010
1. First of all, I stated reasons I felt a creator was necessary. 2. I stated that science cannot give evidence for or against the possibility of this creator.
...I already gave you good reason. I can’t help it if you refuse to accept it.
...I fail to see your point here. This is the classical nonsense atheists spout when they cannot come up with a viable argument against the possibility of a creator.
I'm not surprised you can't see latsot's point. You don't understand why your god hypothesis which you readily admit is not based on any evidence whatsoever is not a valid hypothesis. And when you fail to convince people you fall back again to the rationale it must be atheists just refuse to believe. You can't seem to say the reason might be there is no convincing reason.


at least admit that a creator is a possibility

Have you really admitted it's possible there isn't one?


You haven’t shown that my logic is wrong. You simply have hung your hat on the statement that I have no evidence which is frustrating since I admit to no evidence, only speculation based on the situation. That doesn’t make me wrong.

Just like gap gods have been eliminated one after another, evidence based conclusions have proven successful. Non-evidence based conclusions have proved unsuccessful time and time again.


If only one constant being out of sync will not allow life, would you please explain your logic how more than one being out of sync would then allow life?

Did you miss the link I posted earlier discussing the wide range of errors that can occur and 'life' still works while if you take a single transistor out of a intelligently designed transistor radio, it does not work? You are still arguing that one needs a god because you simply believe it to be so.


Where I have a problem is when you extrapolate this as evidence that a creator of first cause does not exist. You only have evidence that the the various gods which are worshipped are invented. You have not disproved the existence of a creator. Though you may be able to use the scientific process that these gods people have worshipped are invented, you cannot use the scientific process to determine whether a supernatural being exists or does not exist since it is in spirit form and science is only able to examine material things.

You've repeated your position but you have yet to address the actual argument.
How many human babies do you need to see to know a human baby is going to grow up to be a human adult and not an adult dog or cat?
If it walks like a myth and talks like a myth, it's a myth.

If you want to start with the conclusion and try to fit the evidence to your conclusion, we know that method has been unsuccessful. Start with the evidence, and we find the method to be very successful. We have a human race. We have a long history of humans making up god myths. There is no evidence of gods ever interacting with said humans that then resulted in any god beliefs, you said so yourself. Why then, given this evidence, should we expect any gods to be anything other than myths? That is the thing you are not addressing about my argument.
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Just a suggestion, wdunlap:
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 22, 2010
If you'd use the quote command, wdunlap, it would make following your posts an awful lot easier. Do you see the thing on the menu bar that looks like the balloon one puts words in over a comic strip? If you highlight a passage and hit that quote icon, it will type the code in for you. If you don't see the menu bar you can make something appear in a quote indented paragraph by typing
and ending the quote with the same command including the / before the word, "quote" in the brackets. Maybe in your next exchange?
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 22, 2010
Darn, I forgot one only needs the first [ q u o t e ] command. So in my post above I meant "[ q u o t e ]" to show and instead it enacted the command.

So to get an indented paragraph, use the menu bar quote command or type the following without the spaces:
[ q u o t e ] the quote [ / q u o t e ]
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increasingly wearisome
written by latsot, July 23, 2010
wdunlap:

Response to IATSOT,


First, it's Latsot, with an L. There have been some strange variations of my name on this thread, but I understand how the L might look like an I. Second, you attribute a quote to me that actually came from DataJack. I'm sure DataJack will answer that point, I'm not going to.

but you have already stated that you have come to the conclusion that a god cannot exist because there has not yet been any evidence found and since the gods invented so far have been proven wrong, therefore, a creator must not exist.


I have done no such thing. Just read what you've accused me of and then read back over my posts here. You've even agreed that I've said no such thing, but you flip back and forth between arguing that I refuse to accept the possibility of a god and accepting that I do, under the caveats I have explained several times. This is oddly unstable behaviour.

You then go so far as to call me a liar when you take me to task on this and a Creationist.


I call you a liar because that is undoubedly what you are. You have misrepresented my views and those of various others here. How does that constitute honest behaviour? You are a creationist in that you believe the universe was created, so I'm not sure what you have to complain about that particular charge.

It goes without saying that this kind of name calling is unproductive.


It's no less productive than repeatedly ignoring counter-arguments and then playing the martyr card.

I have seen anything from you so far that states that you admit that a creator could exist.


I assume you mean to say that you have NOT seen any such thing. Then I'm afraid you are a liar or so mistaken as to be a danger to yourself because you have already acknowledged that I did say this.

And to say that you told me to do a Google, is disingenuous in that you are essentially saying that you are right and that I need to Google to see that I am wrong.


No, I'm saying that you seem only to want to see sources that agree with you, as evidenced by your selective refusal to read any criticisms by me other others of your argument or counter-arguments in wikipedia articles which you selectively cite in favour of your views.

The problem with Googling is that it is not always easy to know whether or not the info you find is authentic.


This is neither a problem, nor restricted to google. What I'm suggesting is that you LOOK STUFF UP and then APPLY CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS. You refuse to do either. Critical thinking will help you understand how to appraise sources. I've suggested a couple of sources which contain counter-arguments to some of the things you've said.....and you've said you somehow didn't even manage to read those parts of the article. You don't have a problem accepting the parts of the wikipedia article that agree with what you said, but the bits that disagree might not be authentic? Please.

Much of what you get is athiests like yourself arguing against the existence of a god. Heck, even Wikipedia appears to allow anyone to put their own definition there.


That...is kind of the point... I'm astonished that you don't understand that.

This guy is a physicist who argues that there are "prints of God" on the universe.


OK, so now you are saying that you DO know how to apply critical thought to web resources?
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written by latsot, July 23, 2010
wdulap:
When you cannot show evidence one way or another, then there is nothing left but to say I don't know or I don't know, but perhaps, based on speculation, it could have occurred as follows based on the following reason.


That isn't true because as I've said many times and you've completely ignored, some things are more likely than others and because - as I've also said - it gives you spurious license to speculate any damn thing. So by your logic, your assertion that there must be some kind of intelligence that started the universe is exactly as likely as my assertion that there must have been some kind of shade of purple that started the universe. How is this kind of banal sophistry helpful? And when it comes to name-calling, you've done worse than me by putting all kinds of words into my mouth, then denying you did, then admitting you did, then denying it....

My only agenda is to present my alternative view. I didn't chery pick anything, I took the first thing and I attempted to show that it was wrong thinking. The only other thing I saw was a mention of string theory, which really didn't go into enough detail, which is a problem considering how difficult string theory is to understand.


The only other thing you saw? Why didn't you read the rest of the article? The counter-arguments are right there. This is the *very definition* of cherry picking.

It does make sense. Let me say it another way then. Science can only speculate how the universe came about by some sort of natural way rather by a creator, but science cannot show evidence of this.


So you assert. I assert that science cannot show evidence of the existence of super-purple, a purple more purply than any other purple. The one true purple that will defeat all other purples. My assertion makes exactly as much sense as does yours.

You keep saying that I am presenting a strawman, but there is no denying that you are stating that a god is a myth since there is no evidence.


I can deny it without the slightest effort because that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that there is no good reason to believe in god because there is no evidence. That's it.
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written by latsot, July 23, 2010
wdunlap:
I have not seen anything from you so far that states that you admit that a creator could exist.


Then why did you write this?

OK, IATSOT, at least you have admitted to the possibility of a creator, though you think it’s slim.


You're a liar, sunshine.
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written by latsot, July 23, 2010
Ooh, ooh, another one:

wdunlap said:
This is the first indications from you that you admit that it could be possible.


It's quite amazing how many times you admit that I've said a creator might be possible considering that you claim to have never witnessed me saying that it is. *cough*liar*cough*
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written by latsot, July 23, 2010
latsot:


wdulap


By the way, that was a genuine typo, various ironies aside.
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written by wdunlap, July 23, 2010
Response to Skeptic Ginger,I put your quotes in parenthsis since the quote thing doesn't seem to be working. Friendly Atheist bracket worked much better.

(Both are examples of starting with a conclusion. That's failed as a mechanism of investigating the Universe. Following the evidence to the conclusion has been very successful.)


You are not answering the question. You and Latsot have stated that I have not provided evidence that a creator exists. I am asking how we could show evidence if a creator does exist if it does not choose to make itself known. My point is that, even if a creator exists there can be no evidence unless this creator wishes to make itself known. So, the statement that no evidence exists does not necessarily prove a supernatural being does not exist.

(The only 'reason' you've given is your belief a god is needed. That is not a reason, that is a belief.)

The reason I gave is that I believe a first cause is required and that the 4 constants all occuring in a narrow parameter may require a creator. I.E, I am not basing it on belief.

(This is the god you should, by your definition, have no awareness of. Yet you suggest awareness.)

I already explained that I have no awareness whether a creator actually exist, but that doesn't stop me from being aware that the creator has not made itself known. But maybe I am wrong because there are people who claim to have made contact. (sorry, but i couldn't resist saying that.

"This is the god you should, by your definition, have no awareness of. Yet you suggest awareness."

Yes, and I admit that does weaken my argument, but can we be sure that a first cause creator didn't start it all plus set up all the "natural laws, and, if so, how would science be able to see the evidence?

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written by latsot, July 24, 2010
wdunlap:

I'm confused about what you are trying to achieve. Your strange inability to sense anything that doesn't support your personal views notwithstanding, I don't think there's anyone here who denies that there's a possibility that the universe was created by some sort of being.

I might be wrong: if any such person is reading this who flat out denies that a creator could even be a possibility, speak up.

But to take that possibility seriously is to deny lots of things we know and to defy logic, both for reasons that have been carefully and repeatedly explained to you.

I am asking how we could show evidence if a creator does exist if it does not choose to make itself known. My point is that, even if a creator exists there can be no evidence unless this creator wishes to make itself known. So, the statement that no evidence exists does not necessarily prove a supernatural being does not exist.


Nobody has denied any of this. It just doesn't get us anywhere, which is the point Skeptic Ginger has been trying to hammer into your skull. There's no need for anyone to prove a creator doesn't exist in order to conclude that it's so blitheringly unlikely as to make it not worth bothering about. That's all anyone else here is trying to say, as far as I can see.

The reason I gave is that I believe a first cause is required and that the 4 constants all occuring in a narrow parameter may require a creator. I.E, I am not basing it on belief.


And yet various people have attacked both your logic and your assumptions and you haven't answered any of these complaints. If you can't defend either your logic or your assumptions, then I think all you have left is belief. And lies, of course, which are pretty much the same thing. You've misrepresented various people's positions several times and you've claimed (untruthfully) that nobody has made a valid objection to your shaky, idiotic claims.

Let's not be boring and thrash this pointless doll about again, when it clearly wants to die. wdunlap, if you have anything new to say, I'd be delighted to discuss it, but if you're going to drag up the same dreary argument yet again, let's forget it. You've got atheists to admit that there's a vanishingly small possibility - providing we abandon pretty much everything we know - that there's a creator. Apparently you consider that some kind of win so if I were you I'd retire while I was behind.
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Science does not rule out any possibility, ever, but...
written by Skeptic Ginger, July 24, 2010
Because the "you can't disprove god" argument is constantly used to wrongly support the conclusion, "therefore a god does exist", I avoid repeating it.

One of the mistakes we often make in communicating science is not paying enough attention to the science of communication. I saw this in evolution theory debates over and over that went something like this:

Intelligent Design (ID) believer: Science refuses to consider any evidence that supports the conclusion ID is valid.
Scientist: Science doesn't look for designers.
ID believer: See, that confirms what I said.

OK, clearly it did not confirm what the scientist said, so what went wrong? Most science people would say the reason was the IDer was not interested in the facts. Using communication science, however, we can analyze what went wrong and correct it. While the IDer may not change from ID to evolution theory, at least the scientist can address the straw man that "science refuses to consider evidence". And I happen to think that matters.

So what really went wrong? The IDer changed the debate question from one of scientific evidence to one of fairness in considering all evidence. The scientist did not recognize the shifted debate and, in addition, answered with a concept few lay people even understand. And if one doesn't understand the concept of not testing for a designer, one is going to conclude something else from the statement. One would likely conclude the straw man that science excluded some evidence arbitrarily was correct.

Given that analysis here's a different exchange where the scientist takes the debate question back:

ID believer: Science refuses to consider any evidence that supports the conclusion ID is valid.
Scientist: Science considers all evidence and possibilities. The only evidence presented to date that may have supported ID was the claim one could find elements in living organisms that there were no precursor element for, (irreducible complexity). That hypothesis was proved wrong by genetic science research. The genetic pathway to get an eye and a bacterial flagella have been found.
ID believer: [has no answer]

Granted, one is still left with a person who will likely hold his same belief. But there are two benefits. One, the IDer will have fewer converts believing the straw man, leaving no arguments left for intelligent design. And two, you have presented evidence ID is wrong by presenting evidence irreducible complexity is a failed hypothesis.

People who do eventually change their beliefs may only do so after they get away from the debate and are not faced with defending their integrity (intelligence). So I never expect to convince the person I am debating. But I do hope to convince other people hearing/reading the debate. And I know that if I do influence the beliefs of the person I am debating, it may happen later. Continuing to defend one's beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence is a natural human trait. So we should also consider that fact in our communication efforts.


So how does this apply to the "you can't disprove god" problem in science?

Just as it is technically correct that science doesn't seek supernatural explanations, it is technically correct one cannot test for any and every possible god so one cannot disprove gods exist. But just as people (including some science people) misunderstand that not seeking supernatural explanations is not the same as not evaluating all evidence, many people misunderstand the, "you can't disprove god", and can't help then believing it supports their belief or a belief, there is a god.

Because the 'can't disprove god' is misused to support god beliefs, I communicate the information in a different way. Latsop uses the statement, god is possible but so unlikely as to not need further effort to consider. I prefer to point out, correctly, that we do draw conclusions about many things based on overwhelming evidence. We know a human baby will not grow up to be an adult dog without waiting for each and every human baby to grow up. Science draws such conclusions all the time. God myths explain god beliefs, period.

As for the 'can't prove a negative' or as is being argued currently in one of the forum threads, it's false logic to say "because one A is a myth, all As are a myth", this is a scientific process issue, not a 'gods exist' issue. We don't apply the same scientific process principle to go around saying technically we are all agnostic about human babies possibly growing up to be adult dogs. So why is there a need to add the agnostic caveat to god myths?
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written by Skeptic Ginger, July 24, 2010
Post being reviewed, yet again....sigh.
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