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Believing in Santa PDF Print E-mail
Swift
Written by Jamy Ian Swiss   
Wednesday, 24 November 2010 16:55

At Dragon*Con earlier this year, I took part in the “Raising Skeptical Geeks” panel, moderated by Desiree Schell (of the “Skeptically Speaking” podcast), and joined by Adam Savage, Laura Phillips, LaVerne Angela Knight-West, Daniel Loxton, and Barbara Drescher. [You can find the complete audio of the panel discussion here.]

One of the subjects we discussed was what to teach your children about fantasy figures like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. (Unfortunately, there were apparently some young children in the audience, on whose behalf a few parents subsequently expressed disappointment in the panel’s inadvertent “spoilers.” This was certainly unintentional and recently, when I attended a “Jill & Julia” show — my friends Jill Sobule and Julia Sweeney — I made sure to find out in advance if there were any Santa spoilers, and this gave me the chance to walk my seven-year-old twin boys out for a bathroom trip at a critical juncture!)

On the panel I explained that while my partner, Kandace, and I (along with the boys’ birth father and stepmother) are all raising our children with the hopes that they will adopt the same atheist beliefs we all do, in our household we celebrate a secular Christmas that upholds the magic of Santa Claus. I grew up in a New York City reformed Jewish household (that typically experienced December days with both a Christmas tree and a lit Chanukah menorah), and today we continue a tradition from my own childhood.

On Christmas Eve, our boys hang their stockings (as do Mama and I), and leave out milk and cookies for Santa, along with a snack for the reindeer. At bedtime, these are the only signs of Christmas in our home.  

When the boys awake in the morning, the apartment is transformed. There is a full decorated, live, ceiling-scraping Christmas tree, beneath which are a mountain of wrapped presents. The stockings are stuffed to overflowing. The milk is drained and only some crumbs remain from the snacks. Clearly, Santa has stopped by in the course of his appointed rounds!

I possess strong memories of the experience of awakening to these magical mornings in my childhood. But in addition to wishing to share that experience with my children, I also think that the experience of believing in Santa — and the eventual loss of that belief — can provide a powerful lesson, later in life, about supernatural and religious claims. It’s easier to understand how someone can believe in a god or gods when you’ve had the experience of strong belief yourself. It has certainly served as such a lesson for me.

When I discuss my atheism, I make it clear that I am an atheist in the theological sense; that is, I live my life as if there is no god. By the same token, I recognize that this is a theoretical assumption on my part; in the epistemological sense, I cannot prove a negative. But the distinction is important. I cannot live my life as if I lack the answers to an infinite quantity of unprovable negatives. If you insist that you must remain agnostic on the subject of God because you cannot prove nonexistence, then it seems to me you must remain equally agnostic on the subject of Santa Claus; but if you’re willing to be atheist on Santa then there’s no reason to remain agnostic on God. After all, I’ve got better evidence for the existence of Santa: I there’s a photo of me sitting on his knee.

I was reminded of these subjects just last week by one of my boys — Dexter, a boy who is by nature philosophical and contemplative, who readily thinks in metaphorical terms. Even at seven, he has already long been interested in the subject of god and religion, and frequently poses questions about these subjects. He is invariably puzzled and amazed as to why people maintain beliefs he finds obviously irrational, despite our best and repeated efforts to present religious beliefs and believers in empathetic light. 

A few nights ago, he and I were eating dinner alone, and he suddenly asked, “Is Santa Claus real?”

Oy! At that moment, I would rather he asked me where babies came from. 

I took a deep breath and thought about how I might best test the waters of his question. So I turned it back to him. “What makes you ask?”

“Because,” he said, the deep thought showing in his eyes, “he seems like a god.”

My heart sang.

“Well, you make a very, very good point, Dexter. That’s an excellent reason to ask the question.”

I can’t think of a better one, really.

I wanted to answer Dexter’s penetrating question, but without prematurely demolishing his sense of mystery. It was a daunting task that lay before me – but I thought I had grasped an answer.

“But even though it might seem that way, I don’t think Santa’s a god. I think he’s a magical being. There’s a difference. After all, people think their gods tell them what to do, give them rules for living their lives. Gods take from people, and punish them for not following the rules.”

“But Santa mostly just gives. He reminds you to be good, but mostly he just makes people happy by giving everyone gifts, using his special magic. Because he gives all these gifts around the world, and yet he doesn’t get the gifts himself. And that teaches us a lesson. Instead, he gets the greatest pleasure of all – he gets to feel the happiness and joy people have. And if you ever hear anyone talk about ‘the spirit of Christmas,’ that’s what they mean. If you hear someone say ‘It’s better to give than to receive,’ that’s what they mean. That’s what Santa does, and that’s the spirit of Christmas. So I don’t think that Santa is really a god.”

Dexter thought about this, rolled it around in his fertile mind – and was satisfied. He agreed with the conclusion, and the conversation moved on. One of the challenges of dealing with children’s questions is trying to answer the actual question, and not the question we adults imagine is being asked, because of all the answers we know but of which our children are not yet aware. Sometimes all you have to do is explain that every mother has an egg – and no further explanation is necessary as to  “Where do babies come from?” At least, for today…

I suspect that Dexter still harbors some skepticism about Santa. But it’s also fun to believe in Santa, and with his most important and disturbing concerns addressed to his satisfaction, perhaps he’ll get another magical holiday – or two or three, if he permits it – before the final debunking comes. I think I lasted until about age 11 myself, but the news didn’t come as a shock either. So somewhere along the line I probably knew I was helping to fool myself – perhaps not unlike the audiences in my magic shows. My audiences allow themselves that indulgence because they get the pleasure of their temporary amazement and wonder in return.  For the same reasons, I probably chose not to disbelieve in Santa probably just a bit longer than I actually believed in him. And by the time I stopped believing in him, I was well on the way to disbelieving in gods who didn’t stuff my stocking every year.

I've often said that the fantasy world I create as a magician is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there. But as children, we get an all too brief chance to live there, and I wouldn’t take that away from my kids for anything. There was a brief time they believed I was real magic; now they already know a little something about conjuring. Those experiences are two sides of the same glorious lesson. Long live Santa — for a little while, at least.

Jamy Ian Swiss is a magician, author, speaker, and longtime skeptical activist. He serves as Chairman of the Advisory Committee to the President of the James Randi Educational Foundation.

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A great idea!
written by CasaRojo, November 24, 2010
I like this idea A LOT!---> Arita Trahan "The Santa Story Revisited" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqVODnIPbWE

TheSantaStory.com
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written by popsaw, November 24, 2010
We know that Santa is not real so why should we treat 'him'(a legend based on traditions associated with a fourth-century bishop of Myra in modern-day Turkey), any differently than psychic ability, the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot, all of which falsehood we treat with contempt yet pussyfoot around with Santa. Not I though!
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Santa, Lowly rated comment [Show]
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written by Willy K, November 24, 2010
..with the hopes that they will adopt the same atheist beliefs we all do...

Me, I can't bring myself to say that I believe in the non-existence of supernatural beings. There is simply no evidence to support their existence and there is ample and, if one is humble enough to look for it, overwhelming evidence to explain why many people do believe in the supernatural.

I've never been asked by a child if Santa really exists. My current thought would be to tell them that Santa is like a love song, anyone can sing the song but they don't have had to experience what is in the lyrics of the song. Thus all the Santas a child might see are just ordinary people singing the same happy song. smilies/grin.gif
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written by Donovan from New England, November 24, 2010
I do like this idea. Too often, we try to give the answers to children. This is making them think it through. Unlike the idea of psychic ability, or divine salvation, the idea of Santa is harmless and loving (unless the obvious question arises: Why does Santa like rich kids more?). We can then, each year, drop a few more hints, make them think a little harder, until they come to reason away the delusion. Give them the skeptic's tool kit, not the final product made with the tools.

I remember asking hard questions about God as a kid, and my Catholic family knew I wouldn't be following in their steps at an early age. Already giggling away at many of the dogmas I learned at Sunday school, my mother figured I had long done away with the Santa thing. She didn't want me to ruin it for my younger sister, though. So she called me into her room and kindly but sternly said "I know you think Santa is just silly and know he doesn't exist, but your sister still..." and she broke off at my pale, stunned stare.

Kids' brains are funny. Don't give them too many answers, just keep them safe and give them clues. Trying to dispel every myth requires us to be omniscient. Like I said in the beginning, give them the tool kit and let them explore.
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Reversing the problem
written by MadOverlord, November 24, 2010
When my children started asking about the reality of Santa, I simply reversed the problem on them -- I asked "What makes you think Santa does not exist?"

Then, each time they came up with a reason why Santa could not exist, I came up with increasingly far-fetched rationalizations that "explained" away their objections.

For example:

Q: "Santa has been delivering for hundreds of years? How can he be that old?"
A: "It's a family business."

Q: "There is no way Santa could deliver gifts to every kid in 24 hours"
A: "Santa owns UPS; they do most of the deliveries for him, and he personally delivers to the kids who have been extra-good."

...and so on.

End result: they figured out on their own that Santa wasn't real, they had fun figuring it out, and they got an early lesson in critical thinking.

The only downside was that when they did start asking about sex, even though I told them the truth, they didn't believe me.
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written by lytrigian, November 24, 2010
The only downside was that when they did start asking about sex, even though I told them the truth, they didn't believe me.


To a young person, the idea that a fat guy in a red suit delivers presents once a a year must seem far more credible than the notion that your parents EVER got up to -- that kind of thing.

At least the presents actually show up. Whereas, there is no evidence a child can see (or wants to see, ever) that parents would do something so obviously gross and cootie-transmitting.
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written by Paul2, November 24, 2010
So, let me get this straight.

It's OK to let your child believe in something that is not true as long as the belief is comforting and makes the child happy, and it's just temporary, anyway.
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written by GrahamZ, November 24, 2010
I grew up Jewish in NYC, and our best friends and neighbors were Catholic. Every Christmas morning, we'd all gather at the neighbor's house to celebrate Christmas with them, and then would travel to Queens to celebrate it with my the family of my dad's old army buddy, where we spent the rest of the day listening to Christmas and Irish songs around a Christmas tree. So while I never experienced the Santa story in a 1st person sort of way, I did get presents and got to celebrate it with good friends. We never had our own Christmas tree, but Santa seemed to know to deliver gifts for me to two separate houses, even though I was Jewish and didn't have my own tree. I can't recall what I personally believed as a child, but whatever it was, it didn't do me any permanent harm that I am aware of. The way we celebrated it, though, made me well aware of the diversity of people and beliefs, which is always a good thing.

I agree that it's not harmful for a child to believe in Santa or the tooth fairy. Children are a lot smarter than we give them credit for, and will figure it all out eventually for themselves. I also really like the idea of presenting the Santa myth as a 'story', as in the video that Casarojo linked above.
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@popsaw
written by Caller X, November 24, 2010
written by popsaw, November 24, 2010
We know that Santa is not real so why should we treat 'him'(a legend based on traditions associated with a fourth-century bishop of Myra in modern-day Turkey), any differently than psychic ability, the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot, all of which falsehood we treat with contempt yet pussyfoot around with Santa. Not I though!


Ahh, popsaw, still wowing them at cocktail parties with your bonhomie, I see.

all of which falsehood we treat with contempt


Two things, Sunshine: you don't speak for anyone but yourself, and isn't "contempt" a rather strong word for "nah, doesn't seem likely"?

I suspect you have been bad enough that Schwarte Piet will put you in a sack and take you to Spain.
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@Caller X
written by popsaw, November 25, 2010
Still an apologist for proponents of Woo Woo I see. Are you sureyou want to be a skeptic?
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The wrong way
written by GODOFPIE, November 25, 2010
Here is a couple of resources located here on the forum. It is never OK to lie to your child. If there is a situation that arises that you don't want to discuss with your child you simply say "that is not an appropriate topic" or "we can discuss that when you are older" but please don't lie. To trick your child just because everyone else is doing it is wrong. I did it and I am sorry I did it. Of course I don't think I caused my daughter any permanent damage but a lie is something that you can never really take back. One reason that I became a skeptic, actually the primary reason, is that I value the truth. I can't hold that as my highest value and then lie to the people that I love the most. I wish I had done what dmkrispin had done in the link provided.


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3620762&highlight=dmkrispin+santa#post3620762
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=114341
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written by GODOFPIE, November 25, 2010
Sorry about that. Here are the clickable links.

[urlhttp://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=114341]
http://forums.randi.org/showth...ost3620762
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written by pwagen, November 25, 2010
I'm not sure how some people can equate the belief in Santa when you're five years old, with child abuse. Pretending is a big part of growing up.

Say your kid is playing with his Transformers figures. He makes Optimus Prime go toe to toe with Megatron, using his own voice to create a dialogue between the two. To him, he's not just bashing two badly made plastic figures together, he's actually experiencing an epic battle between two huge robots from outer space!

What parent in their right mind would then walk in on him and tell him he should stop playing like that, because it's not real? Seriously? And if you don't, will that kid grow up to believe there are robots duking it out just down the road? Most likely not.

And it's the same with Santa. Having a magical, giving character to look forward to, no matter if it's made up, makes for an exciting time of year, one that they look forward to. And with very few exceptions, they won't grow up actually thinking there's a fat bloke at the north pole, travelling the world spreading presents once a year.

I'm not saying belief in Santa is a necessity to grow up to a normal human being, but those saying it's child abuse probably shouldn't contribute to the gene pool themselves.
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@popsaw
written by Caller X, November 25, 2010
written by popsaw, November 25, 2010
Still an apologist for proponents of Woo Woo I see. Are you sure[ ]you want to be a skeptic?


Please don't put words in my mouth. That space is reserved for strangers at the bus station. You already tried that by attributing "contempt" to "all" skeptics.

You've never heard me apologize for anything.

"Mummy, why does Uncle popsaw never get invited?"

"Well, dear, it's because he's full of contempt and doesn't trust the wee ones to work thngs out for themselves. Your pa and I think he's a bad influence. He's brilliant, mind you, but not much fun. One day when you're older I'll tell you how he bollixed up his one chance in a lifetime under the mistletoe."
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written by Rudolf, November 25, 2010
Wouldn't it have been simpler, and more honest, to simply have said "No, Santa Clause is not real, he's a game of make-believe" ?
Kids are very good at playing make-believe, and at suspending disbelief while it matters. You don't actually have to believe to keep playing.
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@ Caller x, Lowly rated comment [Show]
No lies?
written by Donovan from New England, November 25, 2010
Really? No lies? I do respect honesty, but lies are wonderful, too. Did James Randi open every magic show with the statement: "What you are about to see is nothing more than slight of hand and well timed distraction." Seriously, imagine such a magic show where, in the great effort toward honesty, the magician showed how the trick worked so he/she wouldn't be lying to you.

And I suppose the same is true for comedians? "My uncle once went fishing with his friend... Well, no, not really. My uncle died of diphtheria when he was five. This story was told to me by someone else, but I don't think it ever happened. I'm just relating it because if it did happen, it would be funny. But again, it didn't. So he was on the boat..."

Lying to children is fine, and fun. But only when those lies are meant to be discovered and when those lies are enjoyable for all parties.

This holiday season, perhaps this analogy works: Good skepticism is like good wine, enjoy it in moderation. Since even the Loch Ness Tin-Foil Hat Bilderberger Reptoid Defense Network knows that Santa isn't real, I don't see any case to support the idea that children need to be kept from the horrible lie of North Pole elves. To say it another way, are you applying skepticism to your idea that letting children believe in Santa is a bad thing? Do you have any evidence, aside from a dogmatic adherence to puritanical honesty, that it is harmful for children to counter the above claims that out-growing Santa is a valuable learning experience in letting go of cherished beliefs?
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@No lies
written by popsaw, November 25, 2010
Uri Geller does magic tricks. He lies though by claiming he uses paranormal powers. Randi rightly exposes him as a fraud. Why so if lying about magic is harmless fun? Because people do not want to be and should be lied to or deceived. Why should it be any different with Santa.
I hold that lying to children is harmful period and I don't think that we should cherry pick those things that are acceptable to lie about and those that are not. Those that find truth unpalatable should steer clear of skepticism for fear that it's meaning and implications may become watered down.
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No Virginia...
written by Damned Skeptic, November 25, 2010
Can't say that I see why Santa as magical being is better than Santa as a god, but I don't really understand why people continue to perpetuate magical beings like Santa, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy. It's not something I would do if I had children, but I don't know what I would have said if any of my nieces, nephews or friends children had ever asked me about Santa. I wouldn't have kept the story going by lying, but I might have avoided it by telling the kid to go ask his/her parents.
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@popsaw
written by Caller X, November 25, 2010

It is clear that for you and yours, 'fun' trumps truth. Your version of 'skepticism' is not pure and does not seek to expose falsehood.


Again, putting words in my mouth. The strangers at the bus station will be mightily peeved as there's only so much room. I don't know what you mean by "you and yours." Blacks, Jews, Rotarians, Rastafarians, Papists, Hottentots, people without Aspergers?

Your version of 'skepticism' is not pure...


Really? By how much? One drop, vielleicht? To the camps with me! Not pure! Doesn't the JREF have a skeptic who believes in God? I think it does. Why don't you go after him and "expose falsehood" there?

I believe this attitude more pernicious and harmful than than those that participate in ignorance. You claim to be a skeptic yet you knowingly perpetuate myths and lies by entertaining and not dismissing/debunking Santa, which may indeed be harmless but the concept is built on a lie.


I don't perpetuate jack, Sunshine, and you have no way of knowing what I may or may not get up to with Santa. Again with putting words in my mouth, and now you're trying to tell me what to say. I charge extra for that. I'm not your debunking monkey. By the way, how does Santa Claus need debunking? Now bugger off. Raus! Raus!

Nice job on the strawman argument, though.

Isn't fun the best thing to have?

p.s. Schwarte Piet is taking his sack down off the hook. I hope you can speak Spanish.
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@no lies?
written by GODOFPIE, November 25, 2010
So let me understand your arguement. When a magician performs a trick you tell your child it is real rather than an illusion? Some how if a comedian tells a joke it has to factually accurate or its a lie? What is puritanical honesty? I have never heard of that before. Are you suggesting that one can't have an active imagination and in engage fantasy play without telling lies? Are you being inteionally disingenuous or do you really not see the difference between the strawmen that you have built and the argument I put forth? According to your logic we should teach children that all the world religions are true and let the kid figure it later? Let me know how that works out for you.
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@ no lies
written by popsaw, November 25, 2010
Really? No lies? I do respect honesty, but lies are wonderful, too. Did James Randi open every magic show with the statement: "What you are about to see is nothing more than slight of hand and well timed distraction." Seriously, imagine such a magic show where, in the great effort toward honesty, the magician showed how the trick worked so he/she wouldn't be lying to you.

I doubt Randi ever lied to his audience and suggested what they were witnessing was anything but illusion or slight (sic) of hand. Would you tell your child that what Uri Geller does is due to paranormal powers, trusting that they will discover your lie at some future time?
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written by Donovan from New England, November 25, 2010
I doubt Randi ever lied to his audience and suggested what they were witnessing was anything but illusion or slight (sic) of hand. Would you tell your child that what Uri Geller does is due to paranormal powers, trusting that they will discover your lie at some future time?


1) Yes he does. It's called being a professional magician. Of course he suggests it's magic, and supernatural, because that's part of the show.

2) Yes I would, absolutely, if it were Uri's stage show. If Uri is claiming his powers are scientifically demonstrated, this idea can cause harm to a child's understanding. If it's just an act, then it's just an act, and no different from light sabers, magic wands, and orc armies.

There are no black and white zones here. Skepticism should be applied to all areas of our life, we agree. But you are not advocating skepticism, you are advocating a strict adherence to puritan honesty. You seem to think that teaching is telling. This is wrong. Teaching is rewarding children for good questions and for seeking answers to those questions, and analyzing those answers for coherence and truth. The teaching of skepticism is not what we say to our kids, it's how we respond to what they say. Telling your child there is no Santa is just demanding that your child take your word for it, which is the opposite of skepticism. Telling your child there is or could be a Santa, and then rewarding your child when they successfully debunk such a well fostered myth, is teaching skepticism.

I am also not implying in any way (well, it may be implied, so I am now apologizing for that) that you should teach a child about Santa. My argument is simply that is a fun method to enhance critical thinking skills and to come to value reality over a cherished myth. You may agree with me here, in which case I have no idea why there is any argument on this thread at all, unless you're the type that enjoys it. If you disagree, then I, as a skeptic, would require some evidence that shows it is harmful, since I currently have no reason to believe it is. Your opinion is not evidence, and as a skeptic yourself, I think we would then be back at simply favoring two different, but equally justifiable and acceptable answers to the Santa question. So without that evidence, I will take this second possibility as the default and wish you a Happy Thanksgiving (if you're not American, I still so rudely wish the happiness on you. Some of us Americans are so crude like that).
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written by popsaw, November 25, 2010
You seem to be excusing lying if it is in the context of an act. This also excuses Geller's lies because they are part of his act, Sylvia Browne too!
Randi has never claimed that his act is due to any supernatural gift or anything else and therefore he has never lied.
Yes, I do advocate honesty in favour of woo woo at all times and I do see it as black and white. I agree with the idea of teaching rather than telling in some instances but beginning with a lie such as "there is or could be a Santa" is not a good foundation and will delay the path to the truth. Simply saying "think for yourself, work it out and let me know what you come up with" is sufficient.
Regarding your request to produce evidence that lying to children about Santa is harmful. I say simply that the lie is the harm, not the subject. It could be Santa, fairies, monsters, anything really.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, I do not participate in Christmas or thanksgiving celebrations due to their pagan and religious origins, however I appreciate the thought and wish you well!
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Not Gonna Let you off the Hook that Easy
written by GODOFPIE, November 25, 2010
I am going to have to ask you to prove that Randi has ever implied that what he does is paranormal. That very well might qualify you for some sort of skeptical prize. You ask for proof that believing in things that aren't true can cause you harm? Surely you jest? One of our JREF memebers has an entire website devoted to just that.
http://whatstheharm.net/
I will also wish you a Happy Thanksgiving and hope that you are a true skeptic and are willing to examine your own beliefs and hopefully come to a different conclusion than the one you have drawn.
Peace.
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Lying is never justified
written by Kajabla61, November 25, 2010
When I found out my parents lied to me about Santa it completely broke my trust in them. I was extremely distraught for some time, and a bit peeved about it as well. I was being sent to a parochial school where I was being told that lying, among other things, was a sin that would send you to hell - complete with graphic, ugly descriptions of hell which are also lies.

I brought up my daughters without any lies and they are two of the most well adjusted people I know (biased, I know) because they understand that people will lie to them for gain or other perceived "nice" reasons but they never heard a lie from their parents and our trust is absolute.

It is beyond time to stop justifying any type of lie as nothing is gained from it.
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@Kajabla61
written by Caller X, November 25, 2010
Lying is never justified
written by Kajabla61, November 25, 2010
When I found out my parents lied to me about Santa it completely broke my trust in them. I was extremely distraught for some time, and a bit peeved about it as well. I was being sent to a parochial school where I was being told that lying, among other things, was a sin that would send you to hell - complete with graphic, ugly descriptions of hell which are also lies.


If by "Parochial" you mean "Catholic" they were lying to you about lying, or you misunderstood, as simply lying won't get you sent to hell according to Catholicism. If you mean some other religion, I'd be interested to know which one teaches this rather extreme bit. I'm more troubled by the fact that you "found out" about Santa, rather than "figuring it out" especially since you were old enough to be in school at the time.


I brought up my daughters without any lies and they are two of the most well adjusted people I know (biased, I know) because they understand that people will lie to them for gain or other perceived "nice" reasons but they never heard a lie from their parents and our trust is absolute.


And of course your daughters never lied to you, right? If the answer is "no" how would you know? If the answer is yes, so much for trust.

It is beyond time to stop justifying any type of lie as nothing is gained from it.


Really? "Do these pants make my ass look fat?"
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Santa is real
written by Phoebus Melbourne, November 26, 2010
This is a shoot off thought I had many years ago when thinking about the circle, and thought it would be a good place to share. Hope it doesnt come across as too abstract.

Start of the circle --> Child believes Santa Claus exists
Halfway around the circle --> Adult doesn’t believe in Santa Clause. Believes Santa Clause doesn’t exist.
At the end (and once again at the start) of the circle --> Wise man believes Santa Clause exists not physically but mentally. e.g. Santa Claus exists in a Marketing sense, in a Giving sense etc.

The moment something is “thought” it “exists”.

Some people find it easier to think of this as a spiral not a circle but both work.
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written by IanKoro, November 26, 2010
written by popsaw, November 24, 2010
We know that Santa is not real so why should we treat 'him'(a legend based on traditions associated with a fourth-century bishop of Myra in modern-day Turkey), any differently than psychic ability, the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot, all of which falsehood we treat with contempt yet pussyfoot around with Santa. Not I though!


I can just imagine you standing up in movie theatres and shouting "You fools! Don't you realize none of this ever actually happened!".
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written by popsaw, November 26, 2010
Why would I do such a thing when I accept productions on entertainment value? On the other hand I would not lie to my children and tell them that what they heve seen at the theatre (fairies/Santa/Xmen)are real.
Robert Lancaster went to a theatre in Vegas to watch a Sylvia Browne 'show' with the intention of exposing her or metaphorically speaking standing up and shouting "you fools"! Do you think Robert Lancaster acted wrongly?
Here is the link
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skep...rowne.html
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Santa my arse
written by joed, November 27, 2010
This santa article is about the biggest bunch of horse crap I have ever read on Randi's site. And the author talking about a 7 yo kid. Abserd.
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geography
written by joed, November 27, 2010
The author want magic for her 7 yo kid. The author could explain the magic of how the seasons come about because of Earths tilt and trip about the sun. Tell the kid about the magic of the Winter Solstice and the symbols of death and rebirth than are easy to see in the lenght of the days. Now seeing the magic of how the Solar System works is awsome. So, santa is bullshit and seasons are real. Now that is a story for a 7 yo kid.
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@popsaw
written by Caller X, November 27, 2010
On the other hand I would not lie to my children


Kind of hypothetical for you, isn't it? Think of some of the other posters here as that Vietnam vet who rages "You don't know, man! You weren't THERE!"

As for Robert Lancaster, his actual account is no longer available so I was only able to read the meta-article you so graciously linked to.

One way to read it is that he was kicked out of a casino for standing around talking after the show and not gambling. Casino security has absolute discretion in these matters. They should have gone Altamont on his ass.
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Where's the harm? Let me tell you...
written by Zoroaster, November 27, 2010
While I may have not been permanently damaged by the Santa Claus fraud (it is more than just a lie or an omission but an active effort to create false evidence) what was damaged was my trust in my parents. When I was six, Christmas was coming and a lively debate started among my classmates as to whether Santa was real. To me there was no question; my parents said he was real and they would not lie to me. They had punished me for lying so I knew how important the truth was to them. However the cacophony of ridicule and derision I received prompted me to ask my Mother, one more time, to please be honest and tell me if there really was a Santa Claus. When she said that it wasn't real I began to cry. She thought I was sad that there was no Santa but I was sad because now I was alone and adrift. My parents would lie to me. And they did this not to keep me safe and healthy but to entertain themselves with how cute it was. Who could I trust? And the next day I would have to face my smug classmates who had been right all along. I suppose this was a lesson in skepticism - realizing that I could never take anyone at their word - but it was definitely not worth the trust that was lost. I also realized how hypocritical it was for my parents to punish me for lying when they would do so themselves, making it much easier for me to justify lying to them when it suited me. This all may seem like an adorable loss of innocence story to adults but it marked the beginning of a time of introversion and depression for me. I agree whole-heartedly with Rudolf, that children can have all the benefit of making believe there is a Santa Claus without actually believing it. And I assert once again that the fraud is perpetrated not for the "magical" experience the children supposedly have but for the amusement of adults trying to recapture their own childhood. Besides my own experience, I had a friend who made the discovery by getting up and spying on his parents. He was even worse off because, to avoid punishment for not staying in bed, he felt he had to pretend to continue to believe the lie and couldn't even discuss the matter with his parents. Please consider not lying to children about magical beings. This will not, in any way, stifle their imagination or limit their ability to play. It will give them a stable sense of the reality they return to when play time is over.
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written by Mark P, November 27, 2010
We brought our kids up with no belief in Santa. Nor Tooth Fairies or anything else. I generally did not discuss God, but my wife makes sure they don't think we believe on my behalf. smilies/shocked.gif Kids don't mind, so long as they know the truth from the start.

I do have an issue with the idea that finding out brings out the sceptic though. Our kids watched for years as their friends struggled with the idea that Santa wasn't real, and that brought out the sceptic in them. They know it is quite easy to believe in nonsense if you don't question what you are told.

I have yet to see a good reason for not telling kids about Santa. Our kids certainly have never objected, nor do they find Christmas any less fun.
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written by IanKoro, November 28, 2010
Robert Lancaster went to a theatre in Vegas to watch a Sylvia Browne 'show' with the intention of exposing her or metaphorically speaking standing up and shouting "you fools"! Do you think Robert Lancaster acted wrongly?


Yeah, I saw that back when it was posted. Other than the fact that it took place in a theatre, I don't see how that has anything to do with my point.

My parents are both scientists, skeptics, and atheists. So I was definitely raised in a skeptical household, and my parents told me Santa existed. If you want your kids to learn, you also need to expose them to beliefs they need to think critically about.

Kids need to learn to figure things out themselves, and that often people who they trust and look up to are going to be dead wrong about certain things, in some cases may even deceive you, and that this doesn't make them bad people.

If you actually had kids, you'd be faced with a much bigger dilemma as well. If you tell your kid flat out there's no Santa, they're going to tell that to all their friends, whose angry parents will likely be contacting you further down the line.

Kids live in a fantasy world as it is. Teaching them to think critically involves a lot more than just telling them what's correct and what isn't. My dad also told me plenty of stories about elves, secret passages, and his talking dog from when he was a child. Did I believe him at first? Of course. Do I think it ultimately helped me become a better thinker? Definitely.

The human mind is a lot more complicated than a list of facts in your head. Forcing people to actively think, to face dilemmas of belief, and to actively experience believing in something that they realize to be false is far more beneficial than just telling them what's right and what's wrong. You don't want your kids growing up thinking all believers are just morons who buy into dumb things, and that they are superior and completely incapable of irrational thinking.
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@lanKoro
written by GODOFPIE, November 28, 2010
Yeah, I saw that back when it was posted. Other than the fact that it took place in a theatre, I don't see how that has anything to do with my point.

My parents are both scientists, skeptics, and atheists. So I was definitely raised in a skeptical household, and my parents told me Santa existed. If you want your kids to learn, you also need to expose them to beliefs they need to think critically about.

Please explain how "exposing them to beliefs they need to think critically about" equates to lying and telling them something exists when it doesn't?

Kids need to learn to figure things out themselves, and that often people who they trust and look up to are going to be dead wrong about certain things, in some cases may even deceive you, and that this doesn't make them bad people.

If someone you trust intentionally deceives you, yes that does make them a bad person. People you look up to will be wrong about things, that is true. Being wrong about something and lying about something equates how?

If you actually had kids, you'd be faced with a much bigger dilemma as well. If you tell your kid flat out there's no Santa, they're going to tell that to all their friends, whose angry parents will likely be contacting you further down the line.

So I should lie to my kid because everyone else does it and I should be afraid of what others think? Here is an oldie but goody.http://deoxy.org/emperors.htm We as skeptics my friend are supposed to be the ones that stand up and say "THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!"

Kids live in a fantasy world as it is. Teaching them to think critically involves a lot more than just telling them what's correct and what isn't. My dad also told me plenty of stories about elves, secret passages, and his talking dog from when he was a child. Did I believe him at first? Of course. Do I think it ultimately helped me become a better thinker? Definitely.


Telling stories is great. Using your imagination is great. Creating elaborate falsehoods like Santa or god is wrong. When it comes to belief in the paranormal, our brains are working against us. The current research shows that we are predisposed to paranormal belief. It was evolutionarily advantageous but it is now time to shed those beliefs. It is my responsibility as a skeptic to not perpetuate those beliefs.

The human mind is a lot more complicated than a list of facts in your head. Forcing people to actively think, to face dilemmas of belief, and to actively experience believing in something that they realize to be false is far more beneficial than just telling them what's right and what's wrong. You don't want your kids growing up thinking all believers are just morons who buy into dumb things, and that they are superior and completely incapable of irrational thinking.


First of all, I have never met anyone that has not had a mistaken belief before. It is part of the human condition. Unless you are raising your children to be grifters or Irish Travelers I don't see how intentionally lying to your kids to "see how the handle it" is healthy and I would love to see some evidence of your point. Are you telling me that you can't teach your children without giving them the answers? When my daughter asks me a question of say faith or belief I try to tell her all the points of view that I am aware of and let her figure it out on her own. I usually tell her my position on the question but tell her to do her own homework and figure it out for her self. Lots of her friends come to me with god questions because they can't talk to their parents about it. Last year my daughter was interested in pantheism. I was very proud of her. She is in the process of finding her own path. I hope that she comes to the conclusions that I have but I would never tell her that she was "right" or "wrong". I want my kid growing up knowing that beliefs and facts are two different things. Everyone has beliefs but if they are not based on facts, then that is all they are.
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hmm
written by Caller X, November 28, 2010
Hmm, just reread the original article and something jumped out at me, the original author's use of the term "atheist beliefs". I don't think there's any such thing.

@GODOFPIE:

If someone you trust intentionally deceives you, yes that does make them a bad person.


Have you ever been to a dentist or a doctor? Have you ever heard "You're going to feel a slight pinch"?

No, effstick, I'm going to feel you jamming a needle into my body. I know what a pinch feels like and that's not it.

So, dentists and doctors are bad people. Thanks for clearing that up.


@Zoroaster
Any kid who thinks they can trust their parents deserves to be disillusioned, and stop whining about it years later.

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Dear @popsaw
written by StarTrekLivz, November 28, 2010
Within my family we celebrate Hanukkah and Christmas, and guests include "secular Jews," agnostics, atheists, and true believers. Yet with decorum, courtesty, and respect all can enjoy a pleasant evening.

But that is because they do not insist on a life of moral rigidity as @popsaw does, where s/he is correct and everyone else is wrong and insufficiently educated. You would not be welcome at a holiday gathering at my house (and I make really good tsimmes & gefilte fisch, and serve lots of wine).
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@Caller X
written by GODOFPIE, November 28, 2010
All I have ever felt is a slight pinch. Maybe you're hyper sensitive? Maybe you're dentist and doctor don't like you? I can see that. I just met you and I don't like you. Are you playing a game called "how many logical fallacies can we cram into one sentence"? Argument from Authority? Check. Strawman? Check. Appeal to emotion? Check.
Ad Hom fallacy? Check. There probably is a good counter argument to my "If someone you trust intentionally deceives you, yes that does make them a bad person" but yours isn't it.
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@Caller X
written by Zoroaster, November 28, 2010
Thank you for your thoughtful advice.
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hmmm....
written by Caller X, November 28, 2010
@GODOFPIE:


written by GODOFPIE, November 28, 2010
All I have ever felt is a slight pinch.


Maybe you should see a doctor about that.

Maybe you're hyper sensitive? Maybe you're dentist and doctor don't like you? I can see that. I just met you and I don't like you.


Well, Gullible's Travels, you still haven't met me, but I wear your ad hominem attack as a badge of honor.

Are you playing a game called "how many logical fallacies can we cram into one sentence"? Argument from Authority? Check.


Nope, never happened.

Strawman? Check.


Nope, never happened.

Appeal to emotion? Check.


Nope, never happened.

Ad Hom fallacy? Check.


Nope, never happened.

There probably is a good counter argument to my "If someone you trust intentionally deceives you, yes that does make them a bad person" but yours isn't it.


So you say.

@StarTrekLivz:


Dear @popsaw
written by StarTrekLivz, November 28, 2010
Within my family we celebrate Hanukkah and Christmas, and guests include "secular Jews," agnostics, atheists, and true believers. Yet with decorum, courtesty, and respect all can enjoy a pleasant evening.

But that is because they do not insist on a life of moral rigidity as @popsaw does, where s/he is correct and everyone else is wrong and insufficiently educated. You would not be welcome at a holiday gathering at my house (and I make really good tsimmes & gefilte fisch, and serve lots of wine).



Thank you for backing up what I've been saying all along.
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written by Caller X, November 28, 2010
written by GODOFPIE, November 28, 2010
All I have ever felt is a slight pinch.


Maybe you should see a doctor about that.

Maybe you're hyper sensitive? Maybe you're dentist and doctor don't like you? I can see that. I just met you and I don't like you.


You still haven't met me, Gullible's Travels. I wear your ad hominem attack as a badge of honor.

Are you playing a game called "how many logical fallacies can we cram into one sentence"?



Argument from Authority? Check.


Nope, never happened.

Strawman? Check.


Nope, never happened.

Appeal to emotion? Check.


Nope, never happened.

Ad Hom fallacy? Check.


Nope, never happened. I love the gays and I can spell "hominem."

There probably is a good counter argument to my "If someone you trust intentionally deceives you, yes that does make them a bad person" but yours isn't it.


So you say.

@StarTrekLivz:

written by StarTrekLivz, November 28, 2010
Within my family we celebrate Hanukkah and Christmas, and guests include "secular Jews," agnostics, atheists, and true believers. Yet with decorum, courtesty, and respect all can enjoy a pleasant evening.

But that is because they do not insist on a life of moral rigidity as @popsaw does, where s/he is correct and everyone else is wrong and insufficiently educated. You would not be welcome at a holiday gathering at my house (and I make really good tsimmes & gefilte fisch, and serve lots of wine).


Thank you for seconding what I've been saying all along with your final sentence.

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The same excuses.
written by kyle8425, November 29, 2010
Here is what bugs me about this. This "excuse" for letting your kids believe in Santa (or not correct them when you get the chance) is dangerously close to the excuse that people give for continuing in their religious belief even after they know that it is false. "It's okay to still believe--even though I know it's false--because it's good/enjoyable for me/others/society." No! Any exercise, or encouragement, of credulity is too much--especially when it is for your own benefit. As William Clifford taught us, any exercise of credulity encourages credulity. When the kids are old enough to ask the question, they are old enough to know the truth. Anything else teaches them that it is okay to believe things without evidence for their own gratification--and this is the main line of defense for religious belief.

I'm curious if Randi would, for a second, let his kids believe that his magic tricks "really are magic". As soon as they were old enough to ask, would he not show them how the tricks work? That they were not really magic? Shouldn't we do the same for Santa? As soon as the kids are old enough to ask...we should tell them the truth. Never encourage credulous belief!

It disturbs me that Santa has such a hold on us that even skeptics would argue in defense of credulous belief to defend him.

If you are interested, I argued against the Santa-Claus-Lie last year in an Op-Ed in the Baltimore Sun. http://articles.baltimoresun.c...arent-kids

Also I have a chapter in Christmas--Philosophy for Everyone.
http://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Philosophy-Everyone-Better-Than/dp/144433090X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291062174&sr=8-1-spell

Enjoy! And think hard!
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written by zhombu, November 29, 2010
Well, that's been a strong discussion. I haven't the time to read and correlate each post but I have a feeling that those here who believe that allowing one's children to see Santa as real as those who found it important to them as children. I grew up in a defiantly secular Jewish family. For unknown reasons, on the years that my brother and I did receive presents, we found them laid out for us on Christmas morning (they also gave us Easter baskets, too, go figure). I think my parents did that only so we were in synch with our friends, almost none of whom were Jewish. I never had, at any age, any belief in Santa, Easter bunnies, tooth fairies, or any supernatural stuff. I always thought that it was odd that my friends did, such as the time I asked a friend why the Jesus on the cross hanging in his kitchen was in his underwear. He thought it was a valid question, too, so we went to his mother and asked it.

"Mom, why is Jesus hanging in his underwear?"

"Well, they did that to make it more shameful" she replied.

At 6, I wasn't too sure about what that meant, but I do clearly remember thinking that it was a silly thing to do. Why embarrass somebody even more? Why indeed is he on that cross in the first place? I was never exposed to the concept so it meant absolutely nothing to me. I just looked at it as "them" making someone feel bad, which is not what one should do.

So what's the point here? Beats me, I got lost. Perhaps it's that kids are happy to believe whatever you tell them. If told, sensibly, that Santa isn't real, as long oodles of presents appear on the appointed day, they don't care. Maybe they'd even be happier to find out that it's their parents supplying the goods. Santa comes but once per year. Mom and Dad are here all of the time. "I want, I want..."
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written by trixta, November 29, 2010
I have not read all the posts above.

I think it is very destructive to your relationship with your children to lie to them. I think, if you want your child to trust you. Don't lie to them. Not even about Santa.
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written by trixta, November 29, 2010
Lying is never justified
written by Kajabla61, November 25, 2010

See up the page.
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written by The Central Scrutinizer, November 29, 2010
Jamy, well said. You really nailed it!

I don't have kids, and with luck, never will, but I do have nieces and nephews. While they never asked me about it, if they did, I think I would explain it exactly the same way you did.

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Caller X
written by Kajabla61, November 29, 2010
If by "Parochial" you mean "Catholic" they were lying to you about lying, or you misunderstood, as simply lying won't get you sent to hell according to Catholicism. If you mean some other religion, I'd be interested to know which one teaches this rather extreme bit. I'm more troubled by the fact that you "found out" about Santa, rather than "figuring it out" especially since you were old enough to be in school at the time.


Yes, I went to a cathoholic school and since they are the local branch of the big corporation what they say is considered an accurate portrayal of the ideals of the Fatican. From the Approximately Ten Commandments the phrase "Though shall not bear false witness against they neighbor." was extrapolated to mean all lies as everyone is your "neighbor" and "bear false witness" directly equates to "lie". It doesn't matter what they said to me about lying anyway as everything they said is based on the lies of an invisible god who looks like humans, a virgin born savior, a devil, angels, heaven, hell, etc. ad nauseum. I did not misunderstand what I was taught, I was a straight A student who wanted to become a priest for many years.

I was in second grade when other children told me about Santa being a lie, that is only age 7. I was the oldest of 6 kids so the farce of Santa was still running strong for the sake of my very young siblings. The children who told me were the youngest of their litters so they learned earlier in life. Yes, I was a naive 7 year old, how awful of me.

And of course your daughters never lied to you, right? If the answer is "no" how would you know? If the answer is yes, so much for trust.


Children are lousy liars, easily found out, and I am not naive. I never caught my daughters in a lie and they never backtracked on anything they said to me. I taught them that punishment for lying would be worse than the truth and dealing with it. I had two daughters who were close in age and have always been best of friends, they rarely argued about anything and resolved most issues with little help from my wife and I. Your cynical attitude towards my statement says much about you.

"Do these pants make my ass look fat?"


My wife did ask me a similar question once. My response: "Your ass is not fat to begin with but those pants do make it look bigger than the pair you had on yesterday. Wear darker colored pants and lighter colored shirts to reduce the visual attention to your rear and to enhance attention to your bust, and wear pants with larger pockets as well." She wasn't pleased at first, no surprise, but understood and appreciated the fact that I knew enough about fashion tips to give her an honest answer she could work with.

I think most people, like you, have no idea how wonderful it is to live in absolute honesty with your loved ones. For all of the screaming of "TRUTH" by the religions it is amazing how quickly they cynically dismiss my simple and honest statements about how I have lived my life since disposing of religion.
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written by Caller X, November 30, 2010
Yes, I went to a cathoholic school and since they are the local branch of the big corporation what they say is considered an accurate portrayal of the ideals of the Fatican.


Well, what you said they said is simply not Catholic teaching.

From the Approximately Ten Commandments the phrase "Though shall not bear false witness against they neighbor." was extrapolated to mean all lies as everyone is your "neighbor" and "bear false witness" directly equates to "lie".


Well, "neighbor" in that context means "another Israelite." Lying about non-Israelites was okay.

The Catholic simply does not and never did teach that lying was a mortal sin. You're wrong on that aspect, but it's remotely possible that you were taught incorrectly on that point.

It doesn't matter what they said to me about lying anyway as everything they said is based on the lies of an invisible god who looks like humans, a virgin born savior, a devil, angels, heaven, hell, etc. ad nauseum. I did not misunderstand what I was taught, I was a straight A student who wanted to become a priest for many years.


Wow, that last bit calls a lot of stuff into question, but this is not your 50 minute hour.

I was in second grade when other children told me about Santa being a lie, that is only age 7. I was the oldest of 6 kids so the farce of Santa was still running strong for the sake of my very young siblings. The children who told me were the youngest of their litters so they learned earlier in life. Yes, I was a naive 7 year old, how awful of me.


Not naive or awful, just slow.


Children are lousy liars, easily found out, and I am not naive. I never caught my daughters in a lie and they never backtracked on anything they said to me.


No need to backtrack if you haven't gotten caught, is there?

"Children are lousy liars." You are a funny funny funnyman.

I taught them that punishment for lying would be worse than the truth and dealing with it. I had two daughters who were close in age and have always been best of friends, they rarely argued about anything and resolved most issues with little help from my wife and I. Your cynical attitude towards my statement says much about you.


Ah, so your daughters were never teenagers. That explains it. From your description it sounds like they would cover for each other. Maybe you're just bad at figuring out when someone is lying.


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written by SheldonHelms, November 30, 2010
Excellent article, Jamy! I don't understand why everyone is giving you such a hard time about this. It seems to me that it's a much easier thing to think (and behave) in absolutes than it is to think deeply about whether there's some middle ground here. And I think you've found a terrific way to preserve tradition (preserving your children's sense of wonder, and keeping them connected to their culture), while also being a responsible parent and not forcing them to be noncritical thinkers. I'm sure they'll thank you for this some day.

To everyone else, as offended as I was by Phil Plait's "Don't Be a Dick" speech at TAM8, I'm starting to understand why he felt it was important. Some of you need to become the critical thinkers you identify as, rather than the cult-like automatons you're acting like.
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Once again.
written by CasaRojo, November 30, 2010
I posted the following link at the very top. We don't have to lie to our kids, we don't have. We can if we want to I suppose but I'm not sure why anyone would want to unless lying to them would prevent something horrible. Here's a link to what I think is a wonderful way to approach the Santa myth. I like this idea A LOT!---> Arita Trahan "The Santa Story Revisited" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqVODnIPbWE

TheSantaStory.com
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correction
written by CasaRojo, November 30, 2010
There should be a "to" at the end of my 2nd sentence above---> we don't have to.
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You cannot prove a negative? Oh really?
written by Cyberguy, December 01, 2010
I keep reading that "you cannot prove a negative". This is untrue, and easily dis-proven because the statement is self-contradictory.

"You cannot prove a negative" is equivalent to "A proof of a negative statement does not exist".

This is itself a negative statement (in the same sense as the statement "God does not exist") which, by its own definition, cannot be proven! QED.
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@Cyberguy
written by Caller X, December 01, 2010
Look! It's trying to think! Isn't that just the CUTEST?

You raise a good point, one which was discussed in more detail, but accessible to those without formal training in logic by Stephen D. Hales in Think, v10, pp. 109-112.

As to the existence of God, the burden of proof is on the party asserting it. It would be that party who says "You can't prove a negative." I am not required to prove the non-existence of God. Anything gratuitously asserted may be just as gratuitously denied. Neti, neti.
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Best parental response to Santa questions
written by laursaurus, December 01, 2010
My mother's response to my Santa questions worked so well that I used it for my kids.
Whatever they ask from "how" to "if", ask "What do you think?" It's a terrific way to listen to your child's thought process as they figure it out. Plus, you don't need to lie or mislead them. The day always comes when they finally admit that they know Santa is Mom and Dad, usually they like to play along until a month or so after the last Santa-is-real Christmas. Then you explain why you always turned the question around to avoid an outright lie. Parents continue this tradition for their children because it's so much fun. Mommy wanted you to experience the joy of believing in Santa, just like she did when she was a child. It's a tradition!
Don't let your atheism keep you from enjoying Christmas. It's a national holiday (USA)so you are entitled to feel some joy in this the darkest, otherwise depressive time of year in the Northern Hemisphere.
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written by AndyL, December 03, 2010
Children are lousy liars, easily found out

Hah! Spoken like an only child.

Perhaps children are poor at inventing lies, but telling parents what they want or expect to hear? Children are experts. The younger the more believable.

Anyone who grew up with younger siblings will tell you that!
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@AndyL
written by Caller X, December 03, 2010
Nice to hear another voice of real world sanity.


Hah! Spoken like an only child.


No, just someone who doesn't want to think about the repeated violations of nether regions by local Mods and/or Teddy Boys, or the local equivalent thereof.

"No, momdad, my boyfriend's only 22!"

"I'm staying over at Mallory's house tonight, ok?"

"Of course I didn't ask my boss to buy me wine coolers... waaaaah?"

"I can't believe you don't trust me!"


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Last Updated on Wednesday, 24 November 2010 16:59