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Dehumanized! PDF Print E-mail
Swift
Written by Brandon K. Thorp   
Monday, 31 August 2009 00:00

The following is an open letter to Harpers' Magazine.

Greetings:

I am writing with regard to Mark Slouka's article, "Dehumanized: When math and science rule the school." (Subscription required) The story is marvelously written, extremely prescient, and, I'm afraid, quite dangerous.

Slouka's idea is that American education has ceased to create citizens, and instead has set about creating a generation of market-ready employees possessing little capacity for critical thought. Bravo, Mr. Slouka - take ‘em to school, as it were. But Slouka's conclusion - that a de-emphasis of the humanities and an over-emphasis on "mathandscience" are the culprits - is most assuredly counter-productive. At best, Slouka has been the victim of dodgy editing. At worst, he is shitting on those who could and should be his staunchest allies.

Despite a few tossed-off caveats to the contrary, Slouka seems out to convince us that the humanities are the only possible incubators of critical thought. He is also out to convince us that the humanities, as they are presently taught, cannot incubate much of anything. He writes: "One teaches some toothless, formalized version of these things, careful not to upset anyone, despite the fact that upsetting people is arguably the very purpose of the arts and perhaps of the humanities in general."

True! But couldn't one make a similar, and equally truthful, claim about science? That our current theory of pedagogy - if we can be said to have one - has defanged science as much as literature by de-emphasizing skepticism and critical thinking? The scientific method, the beating heart of the sciences, could rightly be described as a formalized manifestation of critical thought, and I doubt Slouka would claim that this year's high school graduates have an especially firm grasp of it. But if the study of science has attained such preeminence in our halls of learning, how can that be?

The truth is that we barely teach real science, if we ever did. Like literature, history, art, and music, it is reduced to a collection of decontextualized trivia. When Slouka writes that "we encourage anemic discussions about Atticus Finch and racism but race past the bogeyman of miscegenation" and "debate the legacy of the founders but tactfully sidestep their issues with Christianity," he misses an obvious and fruitful corollary. Do we not teach evolution and geology while sidestepping their implications for Genesis? Do we not teach astronomy while glossing over Galileo's house arrest?

Of course we do, and in doing so we teach nothing. Science is first of all a process; a way of being and looking that has consequences beyond the classroom, academia, and NASA. It is a body of knowledge only incidentally. And I submit that well-taught science has more in common with well-taught literature than Mr. Slouka might think. Because one cannot plumb the deep oubliettes of the human heart and reach conclusions as mathematically precise as those reached by astronomers, we should not assume that the novelist and the astronomer have differing aspirations. The impetus for each is awe and curiosity: a scary/wonderful certainty that there is more to the universe than meets the eye. Both artists and scientists would be forced into unhappy retirement if they believed all stories were told; that all truths were known.

As a semi-recent product of the United States' educational system (class of '01), I am freshly flabbergasted at our schools' ability to suck the wonderment out of subjects that should be full of it. At least in my own schools, the suckage did not discriminate: the sciences were no less desiccated than the humanities. And based upon my own circumscribed experience, I believe that thinking about the problem in terms of subjects can only exacerbate it. We are taught that algebra ends at the door of the math lab and that literature lives in the library. They are distinct bodies of knowledge occupying their own worlds - worth exploring only because of an imminent test - and those worlds do not overlap. Most significantly, not one of those worlds seems to be the real one; the one beyond the school parking lot.

Perhaps the problem is that teachers are not alive to the possibilities of their subjects. It may be that our schools are overburdened with regulations. Or perhaps our curricula are bad. The problem is tricky to pin down - good educations are all alike, but every bad education is bad in its own way.

Uncertainties aside, I think Mr. Slouka will agree that a good education is one that demonstrates how the world of Hubble's constant is also the world of Huckleberry Finn. Only a radical desegregation of subjects can teach us the truth: that we are a species not long out of the caves, haltingly attempting to create a better and less transient existence for ourselves than the one brute nature intended.

Regards,

Brandon K. Thorp

The James Randi Educational Foundation

 


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written by ConTester, August 30, 2009
There is a prior problem, and it is this: the human mind is not only given to compartmentalising knowledge, but quite adept at it. Teaching youngsters in essentially non-overlapping subjects only reinforces this habit. It starts already with the silly idea that many religious tenets are somehow reconcilable with the findings of science. Gone are the days of the “Renaissance Man”, the great integrative thinkers – and not only because education systems are deficient. The structured nature of knowledge promotes it too.
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written by daveg703, August 30, 2009
I seriously question whether such a letter, so filled with ill-considered,dogmatic assertions and arrogant prejudice, would ever be accepted for publication here, if submitted by someone outside the JREF itself. It is disturbing to see Mr. Thorp take advantage of his position in the JREF to climb upon a soap box and sweepingly fire his verbal Gatling gun in denigration of every process of every institution of higher learning in this country. We deserve better.
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written by MadScientist, August 31, 2009
How bizarre - and yet I have often heard the comment that many folks with degrees in the humanities poo-poo science because they don't understand it and think they're a big boy/girl if they poo-poo the geeks. I just thought I'd point out the obvious - math and science are the greatest of human achievements; nothing else ever studied by humans has had such a profound and positive effect on the development of society. The contributions of the humanities are few and far between.
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written by Amos M., August 31, 2009
MadScientist, that is both an absurd and counterproductive statement. The humanities are very much integral to science. Neither can function without the other. What can we call the practice of maintaining records of past discoveries if not history? What can we call these records if not writing (Or oral tradition)? Without the humanities, each generation would start from the beginning every time. The interaction and exchange of ideas between cultures would be impossible. Even if you make the argument that writing only becomes the product of humanities if it is artistic in some way, how many people do you think would be educated if all scientific writings were dry to such an extreme?

Beyond this, as Brandon K. Thorp points out, a novelist and astronomer share fundamental similarities. Science and the humanities play off of eachother, one inspiring the other and vice versa, and both draw on human curiosity and wonder. To try and separate the humanities from science would be like asking an architect for a building which somehow has no aesthetic qualities. It can't be done.
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written by MadScientist, August 31, 2009
@Amos M.: Calling all written records "history" is disingenuous at best. My point is that it is really strange to claim that science and math are dehumanizing and that the 'humanities' are somehow such a wondrous thing which deserves more attention. Most people are not adept at math and science -they just don't care. In a similar fashion they don't care about most of the humanities either. To claim that the humanities suffer because of the sciences is, to put it very mildly, stupid. Now for the sake of argument let's assume that there is a greater emphasis on math and science - could that be because they are actually more useful to people in their daily lives? Why is the idiot author arguing that math and sciences is dehumanizing?

As for this: "To try and separate the humanities from science would be like asking an architect for a building which somehow has no aesthetic qualities. It can't be done."

Yes, it has been done; there are many buildings which have no aesthetic values. Just driving along in my neighborhood I frequently remark "that's supposed to be a house? I've seen prison toilets that are more beautiful."
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written by OldProf, August 31, 2009
As a teacher of mathematics and physics for over 30 years, who has seen his share of university politics, I can say that Mark Slouka's attitude is very common among academics and administrators. They don't really like math and/or science, see it as beneath them, and don't admit how much they rely on it. Read C.P.Snow's 'The Two Cultures' for a similar attitude in the UK, 50 years ago.
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written by Blargh the Intangible, August 31, 2009
@MadScientist
I just thought I'd point out the obvious - math and science are the greatest of human achievements; nothing else ever studied by humans has had such a profound and positive effect on the development of society. The contributions of the humanities are few and far between.
So which of the two, math or science, gave us democracy, freedom of speech, human rights, etc? Those seem to me philosophical ideas, not scientific or mathematical ones.
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Ra Ra Ra!
written by CasaRojo, August 31, 2009
We need to focus on more football! More school spirit. More school rivalry. Schools need to promote more door to door candy sales. This country needs more marketers and sales people. Schools should teach more of the art, science and psychology of marketing snake oil. Teach how to grow a consumerist society because unbridled growth should be the goal of every endeavor. Looks to me like our schools are right on track!

Please don't get me started...

Wonder why we *rarely* see scientists and physicians running for public office? Why do we see so much magic beauty cream that when you do the research on their effectiveness, there's little if any supporting scientific data? Why do we always.... my soapbox just collapsed. Guess I'll go look for a *new/improved* model. Maybe one with a V8!

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written by bosshog, August 31, 2009
So many differing and conflicting interests are intent on "teaching the children in order to bring about change" that the public schools have become a battleground for social issues and forgotten the children themselves.
A strong argument for dismantling the public school system and giving tax credits for private education.
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written by bosshog, August 31, 2009
MadScientist:
Man does not live by bread alone. There are human needs and aspirations that cannot be addressed by objective data. I suggest listening to Beethoven's third symphony...
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written by bosshog, August 31, 2009
"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? The National Meteorological Society reports that for the summer of 2008 the average daily high in the continental United States was 89.7 degrees with relative humidity of 18% and barometric pressure..."
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daveg709 and MadScientist
written by bkthorp, August 31, 2009
daveg709:

I'm sorry you dislike the letter so, but I'd like to point out that Mr. Slouka's story, and by extension my letter, deals not with institutes of "higher learning" but with grammar and high schools. And having worked with groups of young people more-or-less constantly since leaving college myself, I feel I'm on solid ground when I assert that high school does not foster a deep understanding of the scientific method, or even a proper valuation of its importance.

Again -- one's circumscribed experience can only count for so much. But by using our imaginations, I think we can pretty safely conclude that, whatever a society would look like if its members
understood the scientific method, it would not look like this. And why is that? What's so difficult about the method? I'd bet most of the people on this board could teach it, and its significance, in about 30 minutes. Why can't our high schools accomplish the same thing in 4 years? Can it be that teachers are stupid?

Well, no. Not at all. They're just encouraged to avoid teaching the real-world significance of anything. Perhaps that's because, as a previous commentator noted, schools are now an ideological battleground, and those who wish to stay out of the line of fire must teach to the test. Or maybe we should blame the FCAT.

I don't know. Those are two theories. I've got a gazillion. Not one of them involves the culpability of college professors, however, so you can relax. My point to Mr. Slouka is that blaming our pedagogy problems on "mathandscience" is stupid and counter-productive, and that blaming anyone is probably beside the point. The point is to create smart people, and you can't do that if you're playing the sciences off the humanities and vice-versa.

MadScientist:

Erasmus was no scientist, but no Erasmus = no Enlightenment. Not all good ideas are reducible to formula, and I think a quick scan of, say, absolutely anything by Oscar Wilde will remind you of why that's so.

(But I agree with you to a point. "Science," and the rational worldview of which it is a product, really is the big enchilada. But we would think that, wouldn't we? Look where we are!)

- BKT
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written by daveg703, August 31, 2009
Excuse my peevishness, but while my brief comment (#2) about Mr. Thorp's article/letter was made invisible- ("lowly-rated"), Mr. Thorp gets to print his response to it at considerable length! Is this fair or reasonable? No, dammit, it's censorship.
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@daveg703
written by CasaRojo, August 31, 2009
All you have to do is click the "show" button and you can read it. If you don't like the response (for whatever reason) from Mr. Thorp, vote it down and/or respond to it.
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written by Adam_Y, August 31, 2009
@Blargh
So which of the two, math or science, gave us democracy, freedom of speech, human rights, etc? Those seem to me philosophical ideas, not scientific or mathematical ones.

Actually, if you were to read any good historical book you will discover that science plays a huge huge huge role in the humanities. A lot of political scientists and philosophers actually tried to base their philosophies off of math and science. One good example is Thomas Hobbs literally cursing (For his time) in amazement as he read the Euclid's proof of the Pythagorean Theorem which in turn he tried to apply to the Leviathan.
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Indoor Language, Please
written by Caller X, August 31, 2009
"Shitting" Mr. Thorp? What an unfortunate choice of phrase. Tut, Mr. Thorp. Tut.
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Are You of the Body?
written by Caller X, August 31, 2009
written by daveg703, August 31, 2009
Excuse my peevishness, but while my brief comment (#2) about Mr. Thorp's article/letter was made invisible- ("lowly-rated"), Mr. Thorp gets to print his response to it at considerable length! Is this fair or reasonable? No, dammit, it's censorship.


The group/hive/klaven has spoken. Are you of the body? You attacked the body.
You have heard the word and disobeyed.
You will be absorbed.
What do you mean, absorbed?
There. You see? Not of the body.
You will be absorbed.
The good is all.
Landru is gentle.
You will come.
We're not going anywhere.
It is the law.
You must come.
I said we're not going anywhere.
Evidently they're not prepared to deal with out right disobedience.
How did you know?
Everything we've seen here so far
seems to indicate some sort of compulsive,
involuntary stimulus to action.
Your analysis seems logical.
It is clear that you simply did not understand.
I will rephrase.
You are ordered to accompany us
to the absorption chambers.
Why did you kill that man?
Out of order.
You will obey.
It is the word of Landru.
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written by Steel Rat, August 31, 2009
"Shitting" Mr. Thorp? What an unfortunate choice of phrase. Tut, Mr. Thorp. Tut.


I agree. If you're going to use "shitting" you might as well throw in a few F words and and derogatory phrases about the article-writer's mother. Shitting? What are you, 12??
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written by Steel Rat, August 31, 2009
Excuse my peevishness, but while my brief comment (#2) about Mr. Thorp's article/letter was made invisible- ("lowly-rated"), Mr. Thorp gets to print his response to it at considerable length! Is this fair or reasonable? No, dammit, it's censorship.


Funny, when I clicked "show" (I normally don't even see the "lowly-rated comment" link) it showed a vote of +0. So why was it hidden??

Again, I hereby request that lowly rated comments not be hidden.
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@Steel Rat
written by CasaRojo, August 31, 2009
Must be something in the software, something overlooked maybe. If you vote on it it'll show the number.
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Everything we've seen here so far seems to indicate some sort of compulsive, involuntary stimulus to action.
written by Caller X, August 31, 2009
written by Steel Rat, August 31, 2009

...

Funny, when I clicked "show" (I normally don't even see the "lowly-rated comment" link) it showed a vote of +0. So why was it hidden??

Again, I hereby request that lowly rated comments not be hidden.



Clearly the low rated comment flag is not dynamic. Once low rated, always low rated.

It is the will of Landru.
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written by OldProf, August 31, 2009
Blargh the Intangible: 'So which of the two, math or science, gave us democracy, freedom of speech, human rights, etc? Those seem to me philosophical ideas, not scientific or mathematical ones.'

Both did. Without the small number of geeks who gave us the Agricultural and Scientific Revolutions, there wouldn't be enough food or creature comforts to have those ideas being anything but theory. Think about Plato's ideas of democracy, while Athens had more slaves than freemen. Without science and math, we would still be a feudal society. Technology also might keep democracy alive, thanks to the internet.
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written by Alan3354, August 31, 2009
Yea, my ears are all wrinkled now from the use of "bad words."
And don't say "f-word", either, someone might know what you mean.
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written by Steel Rat, August 31, 2009
Must be something in the software, something overlooked maybe. If you vote on it it'll show the number.


No, I meant when I clicked the "show" button, the rating on the comment that was hidden was +0. I didn't vote on that comment. So I was wondering why it was still hidden if the vote was null.
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To the Absorption Chambers
written by Caller X, August 31, 2009
It would be a shame if Mr. Thorp's response to daveg703 received enough negative votes to become low rated and therefore not displayed. I sure hope that doesn't happen.
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Why not both?
written by tmac57, August 31, 2009
I think that Isaac Asimov and Carl Sagan are just two examples of many who brilliantly blended Science and the Humanities. I think Mark Slouka created a straw man for himself, and then proceeded to knock it down, thereby missing the problem altogether. A careful blending of the two subjects combined with an enthusiasm for learning and teaching is what is needed, and what has been lacking in public education for the most part.
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@Steel Rat
written by CasaRojo, August 31, 2009
"No, I meant when I clicked the "show" button, the rating on the comment that was hidden was +0. I didn't vote on that comment. So I was wondering why it was still hidden if the vote was null."

Yes. I understand. When the negative vote gets to a certain number the post becomes hidden and the vote total goes to +0 (for what ever reason). If you've not voted that post up or down, or only voted once, (it seems that you can vote twice, vote up and then down or down then up but not two ups or two downs. I suspect in case you change your mind or make a mistake)and vote on it the number is then revealed. This is my experience. I suggested that the reason the vote total was +0 was that maybe the software developer overlooked something but maybe there's a reason for it, IDK.
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Balance and fidelty are what is most needed
written by themusicteacher, August 31, 2009
I teach an "arts" subject, music, but I also have great respect and admiration for math and science (even if I don't fully understand and know "how to" particularly well in those areas). Claiming that the arts are superior to math and science or vice versa is absurd. All are areas of human knowledge and achievement and deserve to their fair share of time and energy. I would never dream of having my students spend a disproportionate amount of time on music as other subjects. They need to explore and discover in every way they are capable of and the instruction needs to be authentic, contextual and revealing. If we actually paid attention to the needs and wants of our kids, we'd have very balanced curricula and much happier people. Neither exists without the other and if they did, we would cease to be human in the way we are at the present.

I do wish there were more encouragement to break out of the mold of the nasty Tylerian curriculum model. The technical-rational approach kills any interest in a subject and reduces what should be a fun, exciting and, dare I say, sometimes controversial educational experience to nothing but a nuts-and-bolts, "Just the facts, ma'am" whitewash of what real education is about: questioning, experiencing, experimenting (yes, we do that in music), learning and coming to conclusions based on the process of learning, not teaching.

To be clear, students are required, on the whole, to have more science and math credits than they are humanities to graduate. It's usually a two to one ratio in favor of math and science over humanities and this is mostly due to state and federal mandates. At any rate, both areas get weighted down with heavy-handed curricular top-down objectives and rarely does real learning occur. What we get are a majority of students who may be able to do the calculation or push down the right button on their trumpet or dissect a frog but don't know what eny of it means and they certainly don't have the knowledge or understanding to do it on their own in a competent and confident manner.

So, now we have several generations of over-schooled and under-educated people who believe themselves to be rational and reasonable folks who are capable of understanding science, math, literature, music, politics, etc. but have no clue what's going on. They have been taught their entire lives to rely on the judgment of others (until it runs afoul of their ideologies) and never been allowed to have a critical thought of their own or make their own decisions. This is a systemic problem and will not be solved by more legislation or half-assed "input" from business or "concerned" (troll) citizens who think we should "teach the controversy" and other such nonsense. The only thing that can help us is fidelity to the subject at hand and a commitment to learning of the real outcomes (not just the made-up clap-trap from idiotic legislators who have no clue). If we want kids to think and be scientific, then we must teach science. If we want them to think music, they must be musical. And that, my friends, is more difficult, yet more authentic and meaningful, than it sounds. Get rid of science-y or math-y or music-y and do it for real.

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written by JT, August 31, 2009
@daveg703

You seem rather upset that your posts are being ill received? Did you, perchance, take a moment to stop and think about reasons why people might dislike them? I can tell from your responses that you've already considered the ever present "them vs. us" mentality, but perhaps you might take a moment to consider that the true cause might instead be a flaw in the post itself.

To spell it out, you do nothing but make accusations against the posters character. You do not cite examples, you do not provide suggestions for improvement, and your accusations do not even make sense in the context of the post being discussed.
(Was his "dogmatic assertion and arrogant prejudice" his statement that critical thinking is not taught adequately or that science is not dehumanizing?)

One could get the impression from your posts that you are not actually reading the articles at all, but rather simply spitting bile for no reason other than to be unpleasant. If that is not your intention then I would suggest that you include more explanation and less pointless vitriol in your future posts.
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@ themusicteacher
written by CasaRojo, August 31, 2009
"The technical-rational approach kills any interest in a subject and reduces what should be a fun, exciting and, dare I say, sometimes controversial educational experience to nothing but a nuts-and-bolts, "Just the facts, ma'am" whitewash of what real education is about: questioning, experiencing, experimenting (yes, we do that in music), learning and coming to conclusions based on the process of learning, not teaching."

Are you familiar with Waldorf schools?
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written by Steel Rat, August 31, 2009
You seem rather upset that your posts are being ill received?


Actually he seems rather upset that his posts are being hidden.
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written by themusicteacher, August 31, 2009
@casarojo

You know, I've heard of them but haven't really studied them. I just wiki'd them and they sound interesting. Just perusing some of their methods and such certainly puts learning, not teaching, in the driver's seat. I don't know that the "spiritual" or "karmic" element is necessary but the school itself seems to work. This is, in essence, what school should be all about: kids learning and discovering. Teachers are just guides, encouraging and answering questions and the seeking of knowledge. Teachers can be valuable resources but we can only do so much by just standing up and reciting facts (or directing an ensemble). If children felt more compelled and empowered to do what their minds are capable of, we wouldn't be where we are right now in education. All attempts to "reform" education are fingers in the dike: band-aiding things when we should be looking at ways to build a new dike.

Thanks for pointing that out.
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written by MadScientist, August 31, 2009
@themusicteacher: I agree; kids need to be exposed to more and given the opportunities to pursue what interests them. Unfortunately when you have 1 teacher per 40 or more students, a state curriculum to follow, and a funding scheme to be gamed for points, the tendency is for rote memorization. Who would want to listen to music by Bach when the teacher only wants you to parrot the title of the piece and its key and meter? The same is true of science and math, history and so on; who would be interested when it is presented as a series of facts to memorize? So the issue really shouldn't be that a school is dehumanized by having more math or science (a canard often spouted by people who believe that math and science are drudgery), but that all subjects are dehumanizing by reducing students to mimics. There's nothing new there really; if parents want their kids to do well, they've got to put in more effort.
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written by MadScientist, August 31, 2009
@Blargh the Intangible: Oh, please do stop throwing out red herrings. If you could read you'd see that I said the contributions of the humanities to the progress of society are few and far in between; citing a handful of examples (which as OldProf points out are ultimately dependent on technological developments) hardly disproves that.
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Not more nor less but differently
written by rosie, August 31, 2009
It's possible that Mark Slouka takes the view that too much time is spent on math and science precisely because science teaching is largely ineffective. It is not unreasonable that if time is really being wasted then it should be reassigned to something more useful.
It would be possible to fulfill this demand not by spending more time teaching the humanities, nor by spendling less time on math and science, but merely by teaching it better: less pumping facts and formulae for multiple-choice tests and more practise in applying the scoentific method.
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written by daveg703, August 31, 2009
@Steel Rat
Actually he seems rather upset that his posts are being hidden.

Thank you! An astute observation at last!smilies/smiley.gif However, the weaknesses of the "lowly rated" function were also pointed out by others. Jeff Wagg has explained that a score of minus 5 causes that function to kick in, but if that happens early in the game, who is to say how many other late-comers would not be inclined to vote positively and keep the post in view. Except they are unlikely to read it, once it disappears. Hence my complaint that Mr. Thorp got to speak his piece initially, then respond later - at some length - but any curious readers would have to go searching back through the posts, to see what he was responding to, yet with no visible label to identify the hidden post as mine. A very lopsided situation, and hardly conducive to a fair presentation.
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Funny, I found the opposite
written by bleedingMachine, August 31, 2009
I find this article very strange, considering it completely contradicts my experience. I went to public school in Minnesota, and my humanities education was fabulous. I took only honors classes, and in the areas of literature, philosophy and ethics my teachers were absolutely amazing. Their enthusiasm was infectious, and until my second year of college, I thought I wanted to be a writer and a philosopher. My science classes, however, were abysmal. My physics and chemistry teachers could not have cared less about making sure we had a good comprehension of the big picture, and I left high school thinking math and science could not be less relevant to my life. Now, at a great liberal arts college, I have started taking science and math classes in all areas, and I have discovered my calling to be a scientist. I think what really turned me off to science and on to humanities in high school was the lack of freedom to investigate in the former and the degree to which I could involve my personality in the latter. My only tasks in honors chemistry and physics were to memorize and regurgitate. In the humanities, however, I could write my papers in the style of fiction stories, I could involve emotion and rhetoric and imagination, and really investigate ideas on my own terms. Now, at this weird little liberal arts college, I am able to do all of those things, but in organic chemistry and classical mechanics. I think the key to making science accessible to more students is to allow it to be exciting and personal like that. I don't think it is necessary to compromise the scientific method in the process, as long as the teacher is good enough to relay exactly how to use only critical thinking while being creative. After all, science and invention go hand in hand!
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Humanities are esential
written by COOL Skeptic, August 31, 2009
Science and math give us technology. Humanities give us freedom and liberty. Without thge humanities, math and science do not provide progress. Civilization is based on a shared view of the human condition, with considerable diversity.

I am a scientist (Linguist). I got my Ph.D. from the Division of Humanities at the University of Chicago. The best achievements of that institution lie in the Humanities. Barack Obama did not do science there.

When I teach kids (daily), I leave science and math to those better qualified and more interested. I respect scientists, but our education system needs better humanists.
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"Hidden" comments
written by AlmightyBob, August 31, 2009
Off the basic topic, but a sub-thread in this discussion:

Can this website once and for all get rid of the asinine "hidden comments" thing? (And yes, I know I can click "show" to bring each back).

What exactly is a low-rated comment? Every time I've uncovered one, it has a rating of zero. And how many times have I seen a lengthy thread-trail discussing a comment that was hidden.

If it takes a lot of negative votes to make a comment "hidden", then a lot of people have take the time to vote on it - it seems to me that that makes it noteworthy, and worthy of showing.

Just my $0.02 (Can)
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Lowly rated comments
written by cdion321, August 31, 2009
I always read the lowly-rated comments, even if it's just to find out what the goons are saying smilies/wink.gif Plus, lowly-rated comments are just as likely to have responses, so if I don't read them I won't know what the responders are talking about.

There is a problem with this system, in that if the first five people who read the post don't like it and vote it down, but the next ten do like it and vote it up, it's still a lowly-rated comment..?

As for censorship, this is my biggest dislike of the JREF. If you said "shitting" in one of the general forums, the autocensor would kick in. But the "special people" get to swear if they like, even in Swift. Double standards are so unappealing.
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written by OldProf, August 31, 2009
Cool Skeptic:'Science and math give us technology. Humanities give us freedom and liberty. Without thge humanities, math and science do not provide progress.'

My peasant ancestors would beg to differ. Pre-1800 or so, whole villages starved to death on a regular basis, as demonstrated by census figures. After the Agricultural Revolution, people went hungry, but not like that.

As my brother (an English teacher) says: 'Philosophy is great for those who know where their next meal is coming from'. Consider the brilliant scene with Deep Thought, from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' as a great description of how the 'intellectuals' feel about scientists.

How did the North beat the South in the US Civil War? The North had the technology, and as a result, slavery was eventually ended in the US.
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I'm afraid I must take exception.
written by CelticGoddess1326, August 31, 2009
"Perhaps the problem is that teachers are not alive to the possibilities of their subjects." I know this is not the only possible explanation offered for why school seems to be so disconnected from life, but as a public school English teacher who is also a big science geek, I am a trifle irritated. I would love to teach an integrated, real-life-centered, Renaissance curriculum, but my hands are shackled by standardized tests, terror of loss of funding, No Child Left Behind, and an educational system that is run by politicians who believe that since THEY got a good education with a "classically" (read: 19th century) designed school, 21st century students will get a good, relevant education too.

The worst part is this: once upon a time, I tried to connect with my students in their world, and I was ridden out of town on a rail (literally. I lost my job, and my former school would have revoked my certificate if it had been within their power. It wasn't and I have a great job now where I teach from the textbook and am as bored as the kids are). If the polititians would just keep their noses out of education and let the people who WENT TO SCHOOL FOR THIS do their jobs the way they really want to, I think a lot of problems will begin to be resolved.

Okay, done soapboxing - thanks for indulging me.
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written by cdion321, August 31, 2009
@CelticGoddess1326: what did trying "to connect with my students in their world" entail?
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written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, August 31, 2009
Science gives us insight into the natural world, the arts gives us insight into the humans that inhabit it (including ourselves). Since neither the natural world and other humans are inescapable, I think both the science and the arts are indispensable.

Having said that, it is my experience (anecdotal, opinion only, and worth very little) that those in the sciences, over time, delve into the arts, but those in the arts avoid the sciences like the plague. Worth discussing, I think.
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written by daveg703, August 31, 2009
@Celtic Goddess1326 BTW, are there really 1325 others? smilies/smiley.gif
I have a great job now where I teach from the textbook and am as bored as the kids are). If the polititians (sic) would just keep their noses out of education and let the people who WENT TO SCHOOL FOR THIS do their jobs the way they really want to, I think a lot of problems will begin to be resolved.

HUZZAH!! (vigorous clapping in the background) I agree wholeheartedly. When I was in high school, the humanities, social science, etc, were totally boring and taught by rote.

Then, many years later, I was on a photographic assignment, shooting in a college classroom "verite", while the woman instructor spoke "from the hip" one might say, (although the metaphor is poor) on some subject of social science. She spoke with such fascinating enthusiasm that I wanted to join that class when the shooting was over. Now THAT was a teacher, and more would teach that way- if allowed to do so.
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written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, August 31, 2009
"How did the North beat the South in the US Civil War? The North had the technology, and as a result, slavery was eventually ended in the US."

Ignoring the over-simplification for the moment, slavery was made illegal, but in spite of exponential increases in technology over the next 100 years, the plight of the once enslaved and their children did not change very much.

And I don't believe it was a technological advance that ushered in the Civil Rights Era of the 1960's. It seems pretty clear that a lot of insightful comments have been here made without clearing up the issue one iota.

I would love to put this on an objective basis, but for every example, there seems to be an excellent counter-example. Even a Bayesian analysis seems fruitless -- how does own rank Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation versus a Shakespearean tragedy?

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written by Steel Rat, August 31, 2009
The worst part is this: once upon a time, I tried to connect with my students in their world, and I was ridden out of town on a rail (literally. I lost my job,


Literally? Really? They stuck you on a train and said don't come back? Surely as an English teacher you know what "literally" means...
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written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, August 31, 2009
"Literally? Really? They stuck you on a train and said don't come back? Surely as an English teacher you know what "literally" means."

Blame the richness of the English language. "Literally" can properly be used as an intensive, and the usage here seems correct.

"We are tied down to a language which makes up in obscurity what it lacks in style."

---Tom Stoppard
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written by daveg703, August 31, 2009
Oh, c'mon fellas, give the lady a break. This ain't no semantics classroom. I would allow "virtually" as a happier choice, however. Or even, "effectively", but none of that has to do with the merits of her post- which are considerable.
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What about the parent's responsibility?
written by DarkZenGuitar, August 31, 2009
One of the things not mentioned in the article is the responsibility of parents to instill a love of learning in their children. While I truly understand that school seems to be more about standardized tests and No Child Left Behind, I also understand that if the parents take an active role with their childrens education early and often, it makes a HUGE difference. I have two young boys and I often take them out, looking for bugs, explain why the sky is blue, read with them, encourage their creativity and I monitor what they watch on TV, play on the computer and actively discuss what they do in school. As a result, my 8 yr old often asks if we can 'discuss more science'. He writes stories, draws pictures and is amazingly curious about everything.
A teachers role is limited. Even the best teachers only get to influence a child for a year. A parent gets to influence a child for life.
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@themusicteacher
written by CasaRojo, September 01, 2009
Yes, the Waldorf schools sound interesting until you factor in the Anthroposophy. http://www.waldorfcritics.org/
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written by OldProf, September 01, 2009
rc_moore@cvaas.org: 'And I don't believe it was a technological advance that ushered in the Civil Rights Era of the 1960's. It seems pretty clear that a lot of insightful comments have been here made without clearing up the issue one iota.'

It wasn't *a* technological advance. However, a) the US had all of the money that the British had stolen for 300 years; b) the US had the only functioning industrial base; c) the US was on top of the World in technology and science, thanks in great measure to the refugees from Europe (go look at how many US Nobel laureates were educated elsewhere).

Where there are not enough resources, the people in power can all too easily suppress freedom, if only by distributing food etc to their loyal supporters. Think of the USSR, China, Zimbabwe, etc.
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written by themusicteacher, September 01, 2009
@casarojo

Agreed. There is no need for that sort of nonsense in education.

@DarkZenGuitar

I agree that parents should be taking on the biggest role in their child's education but there are many parents who honestly feel that it's the teacher's responsibility to do everything: "You're the teacher, teach him/her!" It's a total lack of understanding about how people learn and also an underhanded ploy to be able to blame teachers if their child doesn't do well in school; the parent(s) simply wash their hands of the entire venture and rage against teachers when junior flunks 8th-grade English or Algebra. Certainly, there are not-so-good teachers using terrible curriculum and methods but, on the whole, the unreasonable demands placed on schools by "the community" and knee-jerk reactionary politicians has doubtless dragged the profession down.

The one good thing NCLB did was expose some of the very worst schools but it also has led to demonization of decent schools and good teachers for the failures of families to provide the tools for success to their children. It also does nothing to encourage better practices other than leveling threats and the demands are ridiculous. I work in a district where about 80% of students read at grade level. That is entirely within a normal curve and most districts would kill to have those numbers but, should we not make improvements over the next few years, we'll get a bitch-slap from the Fed for not making AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress). The unrealistic and ultimately self-defeating nature of NCLB shows what it really is: a naked attempt to show that either public schools must be perfect or looked on as an abject failure. NCLB continues the trend to ignore research on how people learn, groups kids by age rather than developmental level and puts entirely too much pressure on schools to be panacea's and gives them too much to do.
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written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, September 01, 2009
"I work in a district where about 80% of students read at grade level. That is entirely within a normal curve and most districts would kill to have those numbers but, should we not make improvements over the next few years, we'll get a bitch-slap from the Fed for not making AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress). The unrealistic and ultimately self-defeating nature of NCLB shows what it really is: a naked attempt to show that either public schools must be perfect or looked on as an abject failure"

I share your skepticism of NCLB, but must object to your conclusions. 80% of your students read at grade level, why not all? Your premise seems to be that NCLB is demanding progress among all students -- my understanding is that it is encouraging the school to bring the remaining 20% to grade level. This is the definition of progress.

My child's school was 100% compliant with grade level requirements, and received accolades and financial rewards (teachers received bonuses). No penalties.

I believe that the goal of the standardized testing is to establish proficiency in all students. Too many teachers seem happy with an arbitrary cutoff. In my school district, they have all been shown to be wrong -- better methodologies applied to low performing schools have always increased the percentage of proficient students.

This required dedication and extra resources of course. But is was possible.
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written by drtalee, September 01, 2009
Unfortunately, some supporters of the humanities and of the sciences have argued for decades over the relative importance of their particular field(s) to society. This argument is neither helpful nor useful. An educated person must have knowledge of both the sciences and the humanities. It isn't a case of which one is "better" than the other; they are different types of knowledge.
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written by themusicteacher, September 01, 2009
@rc_moore

It's an artificial construct to begin with. Setting arbitrary goals for any subject is silly. All you have to do is lower the bar enough. I repeat: 80% of students at "grade level" (yet another artificial term) is completely within the bell curve for expected outcomes. By definition, 100% should be impossible and is, in my mind, a suspicious fudging of the numbers. Not everybody has the same capacity for high achievement in any area of study but if one sets the standard low enough, the impression can be given that everyone is achieving at a high level.

Calling for "100%" of students to be "at grade level" is ridiculous (what does grade level even mean? - that development occurs along age-based lines? Ha!). Of course we should be working for kids to improve but instead we've created a system that encourages moving the goal-posts. Just because 100% of the kids in your district passed some random test does not mean that 100% of them can read with comprehension. It means they can do well enough on a test that they've been prepped for to pass it. Rather than sitting with those kids, one-on-one, checking their development as an individual, we give them a one-size-fit's-all, cookie-cutter, formulaic spot-check of remote and random skills.

The entire premise upon which NCLB is based is flawed. There is no such thing as grade-level. There is only developmental level (as in - not every 7 year-old is going to be in the same place with reading or writing or anything else; anyhow, there is no evidence to suggest that kids who read earlier do any better in school precisely because they are taught mechanically, not in order to comprehend). As far as I'm concerned, any school that says 100% of their kids are at "grade-level" are up to something be it gaming the system or cutting out every other subject in favor of kill-and-drill on one or two narrowly focused areas. I live and teach in one of the most educated areas of this country and we don't get those numbers and we shouldn't expect to. Again, we should identify those kids who may need more time to emerge or whatnot but we shouldn't automatically assume that the teachers are doing a poor job.
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Both are mightier than either
written by stevekelner, September 01, 2009
I think Mr. Thorp's essential points are:
1. We should teach both "mathandscience" and the humanities
2. But we must teach them well!
I agree with this. Good teaching in both provide critical reasoning skills. Having said that, there is more than one kind of critical reasoning! At the very least there is the analytical (cause-and-effect based reasoning, taking things apart into their elements) and the conceptual (integrative, pattern recognition, creating simple concepts that explain complex data). It might be argued that a disproportionate amount of the teaching done in "mathandscience" is focused on the former, which is good but not enough. Studies have shown that good liberal arts universities teach the ability to process information, to compare and contrast, and to make sense of complex information conceptually better than technical schools or even two-year liberal arts schools. By that I don't mean that you must be a humanities major; liberal arts universities teach science as well. It's more an approach to the data.
Where we could do better with point #2 above is to teach children both to analyze and to conceptualize. This applies to any subject, be it science or literature. I once participated in a high-school level program that led me to analyze a Faulkner story in classic literary terms and applying tools of linguistics. The combination of the two was rather more powerful than either one alone! Similarly, science relies on both kinds of reasoning; I remember well fellow grad students who got lost in the analysis and took years to focus on the essential point of their research. Similarly, there are those who fall in love with a concept and neglect the nitty-gritty details that may conflict with it.
If we teach people to learn, the rest will follow.
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written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, September 01, 2009
@themusicteacher

Please calm down, and respect what I actually asserted -- that we have a standard, and are measuring students against it, and the complaint that the progress cannot be made towards that standard (and the implication that it is a ridiculous one) is not borne out by the evidence. Schools have improved their standardized test scores in recent years. I do not consider this a goal, but a signpost, a metric from which we can begin real progress in educating our youth.

Your own experience is proof of the very thing you claim is nonsense: you have achieved 80% grade level testing when many other schools have much lower proficiency. Your school did it; why can't others?

It does not matter that the definition of grade level is arbitrary, or that all children are not the same. You must demonstrate, for your demographic, that 80% is the best that can be achieved, which is all NCLB asks, as far as I can determine.

From your moniker, I will assume your background is in the arts: how familiar are you with science and technology, and the statistical methods upon which they are built? Are your arguments based on pedagogy backed by empirical data, or personal experience?

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written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, September 01, 2009
"Studies have shown that good liberal arts universities teach the ability to process information, to compare and contrast, and to make sense of complex information conceptually better than technical schools or even two-year liberal arts schools"

I must challenge this assertion, and ask for the evidence upon which your conclusions are based. I believe just the opposite is true: those with a good scientific and technical education are exploring the most complex of systems (the natural world) with enormous success. The liberal arts are invaluable, but this is not their strength or aim, and to suggest the best scientists would arise from a liberal arts college as opposed to a scientific college (such as MIT or CalTech) is ludicrous. If the liberal arts created better physicists, then CalTech would teach it as a primary, not a secondary level of education.

I will politely suggest that you hold this opinion based upon an ignorance of the complexity of modern scientific and technical research.
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@rc_moore
written by stevekelner, September 01, 2009
As it happens, I am a scientist (Ph.D in personality psychology, and a researcher by training), so I politely suggest you did not read my post carefully. Let me expand on it a tad: I have seen a pattern in this series of postings of oversimplifying "liberal arts" to being "arts," which is not true. As I said, it is a way of approaching data, and because of its very nature tends to expose people to more types of reasoning than some other approaches.
One good starting reference is Winter, McClelland & Stewart (1981), A New Case for the Liberal Arts, which includes a number of studies done comparing schools. (Full disclosure: McClelland was my mentor. But he was ranked #14 in the list of "most eminent psychologists of the 20th century," so that link is to my advantage!)
For the record, the US News ratings of "best physics departments" (not ideal, but an indicator) includes MIT and Stanford tied at #1, and Caltech, Harvard, Princeton, and UC Berkeley tied at #3, Cornell at #7, U of Chicago and U of Illinois-Urbana-Champaign tied at #8, and UC Santa Barbara #10. (http://tinyurl.com/mp8rnz) By my count, eight of the top ten schools are considered liberal arts institutions.
The scientific method isn't a body of knowledge, it's an approach to data. And liberal arts can help people think more broadly as part of a scientific approach -- if only to find other metaphors to apply to their work and help them sort data.
As I said, both are necessary. This "one is better" thing is simply nonsense. I'm a writer (nonfiction and fiction), a sometime actor in musical theater and standup comic, and a scientist. I published a book applying motivational psychology findings to writing (Motivate Your Writing! published by University Press of New England). I find the lines being drawn between science and art to be misleading at best; actively problematic for both at worst. Check out the works of noted skeptic, science writer, and literary writer Martin Gardner!
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Drat - should have added
written by stevekelner, September 01, 2009
That extensive research into learning styles (see the work of David A. Kolb and his colleagues) have demonstrated compellingly that the more ways you learn, the better you retain information. I can provide references here, if desired.
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written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, September 01, 2009
Well, duh on my part. I reread your first comment more fully, and retract all I said.

Profuse apologies. My only defense was that I read your contrast between Liberal Arts Schools and Technical Schools as meaning "Liberal" Arts schools and "Schools that teach Science". Indefensible in retrospect.


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@rc_moore
written by stevekelner, September 01, 2009
Handsomely said, and I appreciate it.
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written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, September 01, 2009
@stevekelner

I hope, as a trained psychologist, you can appreciate how someone's mind can lie to them and lead them to the conclusions they wish to see, rather than the one's the evidence presents.

Which is a good argument for a broad liberal arts/science education: one that reveals the nature of the mind, and then explains it.
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Not long out of the caves?
written by jcwept, September 01, 2009
Not long out of the nursery, either, judging by your potty mouth, Mr. Thorp.
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written by stevekelner, September 02, 2009
@rc_moore
Oh, absolutely! My field is nonconscious motivation, so we're right on the same page.
And well said on broad education.
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written by OldProf, September 02, 2009
themusicteacher: In your discussion on acheivement levels, I have a couple of observations.

1. Each state was allowed to set its own standards for NCLB, which made it something of an exercise in futility.

2. If there are any meaningful standards set, developmental psychology suggest that there will always be some percentage who cannot achieve it. I know that educational 'experts' don't like this, but my experience teaching mathematics agrees with this.
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written by scissorhand26, September 02, 2009
I found your article quite poetic and inspirational. I'm just beginning college,and hopefully going to university next year. I've always been bothered by the canned and unremarkable way subjects are taught. Personally I think this is done to allow for the lowest common denominator to succeed. If the subjects were more in depth, and challenging, a high school diploma would actually be worth something again. There would be those who don't pass, but these are the people that wouldn't make it through college or university either, and since a high school education is so meaningless nowadays,as anyone can achieve it, they would still be in the same boat as before.

I'd also like to note, that as my first time on this site, it's refreshing to see how intelligent and intelligible these articles and comments are.
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written by OldProf, September 03, 2009
scissorhand26 - I have taught at US universities for 31 years, and concur with your comments. The worst watering-down has been in mathematics and science, because the effort is on 'retention', and these cause more problems for students than other subjects.

When I went to University in the UK in 1975, every student had passed O-level mathematics at age 16, a course basically equivalent to a US university course in PreCalculus and Calculus I combined. In the US, about 80% of students never take a math course at this level, and still graduate.

Prior to the late 1800's, every student was ranked solely on their performance in the mathematics portion of the exams at the end of each year, regardless of their field of study. Is it possible that this is why university-educated people earned more?
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Better even than Huck Finn
written by kunjamuk, September 12, 2009
Sorry if this is a duplicate..my comment didn't seem to get in...
What gets taught in school, grade schools in particular, is pretty much set by what's called a "board of regents." HOW it is taught...there's the rub. I feel so sorry for kids in school today....I would've been utterly lost. 8 big orange school buses I saw at a relatively "small" by today's standards, waiting to load up? If I were a 10 year old in that school I would have freaked out.
I went to a grade school that had 3 grades in one room....learning together! That took care of "social studies" all by itself, no curriculum needed though we had one with books too. We had more science projects and experiments in progress than Mayo Clinic or the National Science Foundation could dream up. I exagerate slightly, but get this...science projects were brought to the teacher almost daily after OUTDOOR recess in the ADIRONDACKS.
How many kids get to watch a snake SHED ITS SKIN, along with the entire 1-6 grade school population for more than an hour.....together, with the teacher giving us all more EDUCATION in one hour than most kids get in a lifetime. I did. And I learned even more when for part of the school year I had to change schools..to a big one, too. About 500 in K-12 (Please don't laugh at my calling such a school BIG.") To me it was with most of the days spent lining up to be marched around an ovewhelming building. Thankfully it was only 2 months out of the school year.
EMPIRICAL DATA. When I graduated from high school, of the 4 top academic achievers I was number 3. Classmates from the "3 grades in one room" were number 2 and 4. Yes, the Valdictorian was from the BIG school. But she came out of a class of 24 or 25 or so. I and my classmates who constituted 3 of the top 4 graduating seniors came out of a 6th grade graduating class of ..get this... 5.
Conclusion. Any primary school with fewer than 3 grades per room is shortchanging the education of it's children.
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@kunjamuk
written by rc_moore@cvaas.org, September 12, 2009
I'm sorry, but I cannot accept your conclusion. I do not think you are aware of the scope of the education (especially in the sciences) that is required of today's students. We do not achieve our own standards for all, that is true, but rolling back the clock to a time that you imagine was richer and more valuable is not going to help.

Your "empirical" data may describe the localized situation you found yourself in at the time, but today I think you will find most valedictorians have taken many AP classes including English Literature, History, Calculus, Physics, and Biology. This would not be possible unless specialized classes were available, separated from the regular student population.

You ask "How many kids get to watch a snake SHED ITS SKIN". Not many today, maybe (well actually most, via the Internet). But how many student's of your day could extract DNA from bacteria, amplify interesting nucleotide sequences, modify and reinsert them into new generations of bacteria and observe the results? This is real education about how the nature of life, not merely Aristotelean observations without empirical verification. How many kids in your day understood why a snake sheds its skin, based on its evolutionary history? Educated children today do know.

Times change, and the needs of education change with them.
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Still learning.
written by kunjamuk, September 17, 2009
Thanks for the comment...I'm still learning. Having some trouble with the lab class in using this feature as I tried to write a response but it didn't take..we'll see about this one. I haven't the memory or energy to reproduce what I lost in this blue box then, but I'd like to say that watching a snake shed it's skin on the internet is quite different than watching it in a 3-room K-6 grade school in the Adirondacks. We got to touch the shed skin, and the snake in it's "new" skin. Very carefully, of course, and only the bravest..no one was forced. We were warned by our teacher how tender and sensitive it is for the snake at this time which was why he was so irritable. I don't think PETA existed yet, but I think we would have passed inspection. He was let go in the woods soon after our lesson..a lesson in respect for the nature of life as well as it's physiology, natural history, and evolutionary history. Maybe educated children today do know...but will they know it as deeply and vividly and fondly as I do...47 years later?
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