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Delusions About Dilutions Never Cease PDF Print E-mail
Swift
Written by Harriet Hall   
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 00:00

In "Challenging Challenges" (Swift, Oct 17), Jeff Wagg posted a video with weird sounds and the voice of John Benneth, who is challenging Randi's Million Dollar Challenge. I recently had an e-mail exchange with Benneth that was very illuminating.

A former unsuccessful applicant for the MDC, he is considering re-applying.  He thinks he can distinguish between water and homeopathic remedies. He believes a recent study by Montagnier et al. supports homeopathy, and he wants to perform a variant of the same experiment. He is not alone in praising the Montagnier study: homeopaths are touting it as proof that homeopathy works.

You can read the pdf of Montagnier's article by going to this webpage and clicking on the line below "fichiers". http://lucmontagnierfoundation.org/montagnier/article-26-electromagnetic-signals-are-produced-by-aqueous-nanostructures-derived-from-bacterial-dna

I have critiqued this study on Science-Based Medicine http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2081&cpage=1#comment-33185 , and several of my readers have pointed out numerous additional flaws in the "Comments" section. The title of the study is "Electromagnetic signals are produced by aqueous nanostructures derived from bacterial DNA."  Guess who designed the experimental apparatus? The infamous Jacques Benveniste, the one whose homeopathy experiment failed under the observation of Randi and the other investigators from Nature, and who subsequently won his second Ig Nobel prize for allegedly sending homeopathic remedies over the Internet.

The really hilarious thing is that if Montagnier's results were true and if this were the mechanism for homeopathy, it would actually disprove homeopathy on 3 counts:

  1. The EMS signals they found required the presence of particles of DNA. They were able to measure the particle size. In high homeopathic dilutions there are no measurable amounts of the original substances present.
  2. Homeopathy postulates effects at all dilutions, with increasing effects as the dilutions become greater. In this study, there were no effects at low dilutions. There were a series of positive effects at high dilutions but the effect size did not increase progressively as the dilution increased. At the highest dilutions, the effect vanished.
  3. The signals were detectable for less than 48 hours. Homeopathic remedies are not administered within hours of their preparation. They supposedly remain effective for long periods. Most homeopaths say that homeopathic remedies do not require expiration dates and will remain effective indefinitely as long as they are properly stored.

Not that Randi needs any help, but between my critique and the glaring flaws pointed out by the commenters, there would be lots of conditions to set (controlling for background noise, contamination, etc.) before any similar experiment could be accepted for the MDC. Montagnier's experimental design is so faulty that on the Quackometer website, Le Canard Noir has nominated him for an Ig Nobel prize. http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2009/10/why-i-am-nominating-luc-montagnier-for.html That would give him the dubious distinction of being the first to win both the Nobel and the Ig Nobel.

 

 

 


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written by daveg703, October 20, 2009
Excuse my ignorance, but what is the ambiguous term Ig Nobel? A-HA! Now that it is no longer in Arial font, it makes itself clear. Otherwise, in Arial, thanks to an egregious example of stupidity by the font designer, there is no way, other than context, to differentiate a capital I and a lower case l. See for yourself.
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written by Trent Hoare, October 20, 2009
Whether winning an Ig Nobel prize is a dubious distinction depends a lot on what you get it for. It is not a prize for bad science. It is not to the Nobel prize what the raspberry awards are to the Oscars.

I suppose it can most easily be described as a prize for weird science. Such as making MRI scans of people having sex to see what is going on; or the first description of a homosexual necrophiliac duck; or levitating live frogs in a very strong magnetic field.
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written by dolandilae, October 21, 2009
Internet homeopathy? is this like Peter Popoff's mail order holy water and junk mail program?
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written by Gnardude, October 21, 2009
I like when Randi eats the whole bottle of pills. Could that be incorporated in the testing for comedic effect?
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Internet Homeopathy
written by sibtrag, October 21, 2009
Perhaps it is like this from the Holistic Computer Medicine site:

http://users.bestweb.net/~benn...omeopathy.
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@Gnardude: Randi eating whole bottle of pills
written by sibtrag, October 21, 2009
When Randi eats a whole bottle of homeopathic pills, he is relying on the public's lack of understanding of homeopathy.

The really dangerous thing would be for him to grind up one of the pills & mix one tiny grain with a teaspoon of sugar. That would increase the dilution and thus increase the strength of the remedy.

Personally, I maximize the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies by not taking them at all...thus achieving maximum dilution whenever I drink water.
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Cool observation!
written by Tantemøkken, October 21, 2009
@sibtrag
...thus achieving maximum dilution whenever I drink

That one made my day! smilies/grin.gif
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Cief Honcho
written by randi, October 21, 2009
Harriett: I'm amused to see that "M. pirum is a peer-shaped small bacterial cell" on Montagnier's piece...

Does it look like me, Jeff, or Linda...?
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written by Stargazer9915, October 22, 2009
Personally, I maximize the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies by not taking them at all...thus achieving maximum dilution whenever I drink water.


I think this will stick with me for years to come. smilies/cheesy.gif
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I heard a good joke the other day.
written by AICHinEdmonton, October 22, 2009
Did you hear about the homeopathic patient who forgot to take his homeopathic remedy?

He died of an overdose.
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