I figure pointing at your own shot and making comments about how it didnt hurt at all, then making comments about big babies, chickens and other assorted insults is the way to go.

Needle phobia is pretty common. Thats the real reason people come up with anything they possibly can to avoid getting shots. Pointing out how other people might die (like your children or older relatives) is the best Ive found too, people tend to think its only for individual safety. Votes: +12

Needle phobia is pretty common.

Phobias are such a difficult thing to overcome with reason though. They're entrenched not for rational reasons, but emotional ones. Fighting them with reason doesn't seem to work so well. Try telling the person sweating bricks in a 747 flight that they were more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the airport, they don't care, numbers, statistics and probability don't matter.

As you say though, pointing out the potential risk to other people is a good one, particularly relatives. That tugs at the emotional element. Votes: +8

My only objections to Wiccans is that they have a strange not-reality-based view of things. I would tell people that humans are strange and often make up stories which simply aren't true. A great christmas gift (haha - christmas gift suggestions from the godless) for a 13-year old Wiccan would be Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" (available from the JREF Bookstore!) I think it's great because Carl Sagan tells about how he would fantasize about flying and so on when he was younger and how he eventually accepted the fact that it was only a fantasy (but there is nothing necessarily wrong with imagining things).

Anyway, back to the human propensity to make stuff up - the best way to tell if there is any truth to a claim is to think of how it can be tested. "Astral projection" has in fact been tested before so I'd give an example of a previous test including a discussion of how it was set up and why it was set up a particular way, and examples of how people might try to cheat. I'd also make it clear that a professional can be extremely good at cheating and in cases some help from an appropriate master illusionist is indispensable. Randi's Flim-Flam! also has some pretty good accounts of - well, flim-flam.

So, rather than preach about the Evils of Wicca, it would be better to teach the art of bullshit detection. Of course maybe the kid just wants to join because there are some hot chicks in the club - the challenge then would be teaching the hot chicks how to detect bullshit and then perhaps leaving the club with the hot chicks in tow.
Votes: +24

Probably the simplest way to make a 13-year old want to question things like astral projections is to go along with the idea, and say you regularly use it to check up on them when they're up in their room alone.

I'd also like to suggest giving him the book "Science of Discworld II", which is a great book for understanding (among other things) where people's propensity for magical thinking comes from. It's a nice blend of narrative fiction and philosophy. Votes: +9

When I was about 13 or 14, I also got really into things like astral projection. I never really found Wicca to be anything more than silly, but the idea of being able to travel elsewhere in my mind fascinated me. After figuring out that it really didn't work... I could do better when I daydreamed at school, I gave it up. I *did* however go on to have a strong interest in "spirituality", exploring psychedelic drugs and meditation. I became strongly involved in an online community of psychedelic drug users, and spent a lot of time on their forums, where, not suprisingly, there was lots of woo discussed. I became one of the resident skeptics, and a primary moderator of their "Spirituality and Philosphy" forum.

As a result, my debating skills were honed, and my writing skills improved in a way to which avoiding homework just couldn't compare. So I think that going through a phase like this is important if you want to be an intelligent skeptic. Knowing what it is to have a strange belief makes it a lot easier to understand where these people are coming from. While I'm sure the thought of your son taking acid with people he met online makes you shudder.... well, it worked for me. Votes: +2

Dear Randi,
I think that this weekly column is a great idea! :-) Votes: +7

#11's suggestion is perfect - use the astral projection idea to check up on your son. He'll figure out soon enough that you can't really do it and that should persuade him to be skeptical about the claim that anyone else can do it.

I was raised in the cathoholic faith, was sent to a parochial school, and realized at a very young age that even though we prayed a lot in church and in school for the Vietnam war, and all wars, to end it didn't work. Hopefully that kind of realization will wake up the budding Wiccan, though it certainly didn't wake up most of the christians.

There simply is no fool proof way to make people think rather than believe. Best of luck to Betty Votes: +3

It's one thing to get a flu shot if you're in a high risk group (elderly, immune compromised, young, etc), but assuming you're a healthy middle-aged adult with no particular health issues, it doesn't necessarily make sense. Herd-immunity is indeed real, but it doesn't offer any benefit to the individual.

People tend to be overly paranoid about infection. The fact is that even those people exposed to the common flu rarely contract the virus. The only way it spreads is through massive amounts of exposure to many parties. One sneeze can contaminate a couple hundred square foot area for a good 20 minutes. The likelihood of any one person being infected through that is almost non-existent, but the odds that *some* number of them will be. Thus the virus spreads on.

The immune system needs training. You can't raise a boy in a bubble and expect him to live outside it. So, the best way to fight back is simple: Don't be so damn paranoid. I don't mean to live in filth or what have you, that would be crazy. But don't go nuts either. Stop slathering your body in disinfectant just to touch a damn door handle. It's okay shake hands with other people if they're not showing symptoms. Yes, every once in a while, you will get sick. But if you're not crazy about being germ-free all the time, then your sickness will be shorter and less damaging than if your body has no idea how to fight infection.

That said, if symptoms ever become serious, see a doctor. But you don't have to go get antibiotics for every little sniffle either. Let your body fix itself, and then it will be better able to fix itself in the future as well.
Votes: -10

Apparently, I'm in good company here. I, too, was a teenage Wiccan. In my later teen years, I practiced a slightly different flavor of neo-pagan religion. It really only lasted until I was 22 or so, though, when I started reading real philosophy and ultimately developed good reasons for being an atheist and developing a perspective quite similar to the existentialists.

Here's the reality of the matter. I was raised with good critical thinking skills. My parents gave me a childhood steeped in physical science and computer science. I started writing computer programs shortly after I learned to read. Years upon years of science experiments, basic engineering, and debugging computer programs had taught me the power of critical thinking and the basics of how to do it. I, therefore, developed a very results-oriented mentality.

The honest truth was that very little I did "worked," except for my having fun doing rituals and celebrating a new and unusual set of holidays. I was very careful to break down the results of any "magick" or other woo stuff I did and determine if it was having any unique effects. It wasn't. Ravenwolf's aforementioned book even goes so far as to say that, after doing some "magick" you must go do things likely to make what you want happen...apply for a job or ask that crush of yours out. I quickly recognized that was the important step, and the "magick" was all a big pep talk to yourself to do it.

There are no meaningful books on Wicca beyond the "Wicca 101" stuff, and practitioners are encouraged to pull from other traditions with abandon. The reason for both is that Wicca teaches things that don't mesh with reality and it lacks a coherent philosophical framework. For a budding thinking mind, it offers what looks like a fast track to wisdom, but it will quickly fail to satisfy within a couple of years.

So, encouraging it is the best thing to do. Anyone with a real curiosity will find Wicca unsatisfying within a couple of years. I'd say it's best to not even counterweight it. Finding, exhausting, and losing faith is a great teachable moment for a critical thinker. Wicca is the perfect tackling sled on which to train. Votes: +6

I enjoyed reading this column, but isn't the forum already adequate for Swift's readership-at-large to give their points of view? Couldn't earnest enquirers simply be redirected there? Votes: -3

"Yeah, you're right. It totally makes sense. The government and the drug companies are trying to kill off taxpayers and their children because they hate money. It's so obvious! I wonder why I didn't think of it earlier!"

...but, seriously, I'm with Randi on the little wiccan. I went through the same thing myself in high school. Critical thinking tends to win out in the end, especially with a supportive parent. Votes: +3

Teenagers go through phases. Wicca is better than any other than I can think of, including Black Metal, gangs, Thelema, fundie christian religions, hard drugs, alcoholism, pregnancy, rave parties, or just about anything else I remember my kids being exposed to.

It's certainly no worse than any other "religion"...in fact the tenets are few but mostly along the lines of the golden rule: be nice to others, what goes around comes around.

What happens a lot of times is kids get into fantasy fiction. Today, online games like Lord of the Rings Online and World of Warcraft can spark interest. What they're usually trying to do is find a way in the real world to live in their fantasy world where they are powerful and competent and don't have to worry about peer acceptance issues. Votes: +5

...witches are female. Her son is a warlock...

(Yes, I'm nitpicking.) Votes: -5

I was raised by religious, god-fearing parents (who I wouldn't trade for the world) and still turned out to be a critical thinker, skeptic, and atheist.

The greatest gift they gave me was the ability and desire to think for myself. I was never drawn to Wicca, or any 'woo' per se, because whenever I encountered it I assessed it on it's merits, and discard it. If you encourage rational thought and independence he'll be protected against not only 'woo', but scams and frauds of all sorts.

I would suggest not thinking in terms of what you can do to help him, but how you can help him to help himself.

Good luck. Votes: +6

Skeptic,

Your nitpicking is not correct. Within the context of Wicca, "witch" is the correct term for both male and female practitioners. In fact, Wiccans accept an etymology of "warlock" which makes it a pejorative term. Votes: +5

According to Robin Skelton's Practice of Witchcraftthe he only rule is "Do as you will an [meaning so long as] ye harm no one."

Not available at the JREF Votes: +0

otto, I think you may have some misunderstanding about the purpose of vaccines and their relevance to infection.

Herd-immunity is indeed real, but it doesn't offer any benefit to the individual

This is a poor assessment for two reasons.
1. The obvious moral aspect, you'd only get a vaccine if you were certain it would help you and you alone? That's preposterous and abhorrent. You'd willingly turn down a vaccine, fully aware that you may expose more vulnerable people if you become infected? Sure if you become infected you can isolate yourself, but there's a span of time between infection and effective isolation. And then there's the quality of your isolation. What if you come down with it the day before you run out of milk? You're going to have to get milk one way or another and risk spreading your infection.
2. Even if (and this is a definite if) the strain is not virulent enough to cause you serious harm, mutation by spreading through the herd could lead to a much more virulent, dangerous strain. Sure it may be "harmless flu" now, but if the wrong person gets it, it can mutate into something much worse. The fewer people that get infected, the less the risk for *everybody*.

The immune system needs training.

Yes it does. And that's exactly what vaccines do, they train the immune system. The difference is that instead of getting a full-blown infection, you get a controlled, safely modified exposure that causes a little inflammation and related symptoms (symptoms related to inflammation, it will not be like getting the flu itself). Afterwards, your immune system is in a condition as though you got the full infection and recovered. It trains your immune system without the risk. This is completely different to, as you put it, slathering your body with disinfectant or running for the antibiotics. Votes: +21

A 13-yr-old into Wicca is way ahead of his peers in some ways. He's already gotten past mainstream religious influences and has done some major critical thinking for himself. It's arguably a part of his mental development to explore such interests. Being that wise, he'll grow out of it. I disagree with threatening him with Judeo-Catholic paranoia via-a-vis astral projection; it's the very thing he's escaping. Maybe more Wicca books would be good; the discovery that authors don't agree or even interact offers proof of invention. And Wiccans aren't the type to bomb abortion clinics, gay bash, snub others, push political agendas, abhor basic scientific reality, reject America's founding principles, etc.

Flu shots aren't overrated (probably the opposite) but neither are they mandatory. It depends on your lifestyle, location, health, age, etc. They're nice too have for most people (and though I recommend them I will not be getting one myself this year - but not for reasons of paranoia or distrust). Several of your friends would, nonetheless, get one if it was right in front of them, no? With the pharma lobby being so unruly, I can understand why people make the jump into thinking big pharma does not have their best interests in mind. I don't agree with the logic, but I understand it. At least they're doing some thinking and the idea of any such "moral obligation" is exactly what they're avoiding and for good reason (I would think most skeptics abhor the thought of moral imperatives and the logic behind such body controls). Odds are slim they will forgo the shot and then get seriously ill so you're arguing about overall situations and logic, and not trying to help them out "personally". In that case, stats and info are your ammo. Sounds like they're either subject to illogical connections between politics/money/industry OR just misinformation. Start by figuring out which but then offer no reply to this; let this sink in first. Votes: -1

I like the idea of a skeptics version of "Dear Abby". I'm as happy as a peacock in a rainbow. Votes: +6

My family was a combo Irish superstition (mother) with a strong streak of logic and science based thinking (father and mother to a point). We went to the library regularly and there were no limitations on what we could read. At about the same age I read a lot of occult books and ate it up and then simply stopped. I was saturated and moved on to the next thing - which was science fiction and I read everything I could get my hands on and that was enough. Next! Being able to explore without judgment, and knowing you have a base of a sensible family behind you usually does not make for a future wacko nut job. No information is bad if you know how to think.

As to people who declare that flu shots are evil; a simple "afraid of needles, huh?" might stop the conversation, but not likely. I wanted the shots and haven't been able to find them anywhere locally. I am hoping I have some immunity already, as I read that my age group may well have been exposed to an H1N1 flu during our childhoods. Hope so. Votes: +0

First off, on the vaccine issue. Keep your cool and try not to put them into a defensive position. Try to suss out their reasons for avoiding it, and mention information that counters their reason. In preparation, look for sites that have a user-friendly approach to their writing, based on facts and with citations to source material for the adventurous. You can then point your friends to those sites. If they're wary of government agencies, like CDC and FDA, some places to start might be Science-Based Medicine or antiantivax.flurf.net. If you think they can handle some snarkiness, Respectful Insolence might also work.

My own story is that I was raised Lutheran and drifted into some manner of neo-pagan Wicca-ish thing in high school. I believed in the whole spirit-guide and animal totem mumbo-jumbo that I read in a book. I would take time to lie down, eyes closed and, as the book I read instructed, visualize passing through a dolmen into the Otherworld and wait for my animal totem to show up. And show up it did...or so I thought. I eventually came to realize that it was all my own imagination, in part because the advice I got from my "guide" always lined up with what I wanted. It never advised against a foolhardy, though desired, path. Belief in spells was only lukewarm. I kinda thought it might be possible, but also felt it was a little silly. Eventually, I grew out of it, in part by reading things like Swiftand Flim-Flam and realizing that not only can a lot of the claims be tested, but that when they have been tested, they've failed. Votes: +3

The example of the rabies virus should be enough to talk sense into most people, I hope.
The complete inability of alternative medicine to even try curing it, combined with virtually 100 % death rate if nothing is done, and vaccines promptly administered after exposure being the only plausible treatment, should, (ideally) bring a return of common sense.
Any thoughts on this argument's effectiveness? Votes: +1

I'm rather surprised that Otto's response was voted down, and it reinforces my unease with the hiding of "lowly rated" contributions. In general, he's probably quite right, although I'm not quite sure what was meant by the herd immunity comment.

If you look at the Cochrane Collaboration ( one of the best sources of informed digests of evidence-based medicine ), you'll see a number of interesting things about flu and flu vaccination. Firstly, most people who have the flu, actually haven't :-) They often have colds, or non-specific flu-like illness which the flu vaccine does not prevent. Secondly, even those having the vaccine show a huge variability in the degree to which they develop useful levels of immunity. And thirdly, because of it's ubiquitous and changeable nature, you have to vaccinate huge numbers of individuals, at a relatively high frequency, to develop anything approaching herd immunity, which will be ephemeral at best. The fact that flu is carried by animal vectors also makes the existence of herd immunity somewhat moot in any case.

Don't misinterpret me here, I regard vaccination of one of the greatest triumphs of modern science, it has produced more benefit than any other advance I can think of. As a health care worker, I have an annual flu shot because of the people I deal with.

As to Betty's son, I would, with appropriate apologies to Shakespeare, only say that I too can speak to spirit guides and fairies, and so can any (wo)man. But do they answer?
Votes: +1

PlasticRectangle,

Unfortunately, bringing up rabies isn't a guaranteed winner if you're dealing with an anti-vac person who's well-versed. There was a brouhaha in veterinary medicine circles several years ago where it was found that the rabies vaccine was connected to certain forms of sarcoma at or near the site of injection. Votes: +0

Well I'd still take that over certain, painful death. And I doubt most antivax people do that much research too be honest. Votes: +0

Wicca, like the Renaissance Festival and the SCA, is the short bus to polyamory, a.k.a. sex with women of larger carriage. Votes: -2

I just got my H1N1 vaccine last Friday, and I plan to get a seasonal flu shot as soon as my county's health department gets some more. I'm 29 years old and in reasonably good health, and so maybe I'm being a bit paranoid, but I submit for the JREF readers the fact that I am a high school teacher. I see at least 70 students per day (we're a small rural school), and on Tuesdays and Thursdays I moonlight teaching astronomy at the local elementary school's after-school program. I do the best I can to keep my classroom furniture wiped down with Clorox wipes, and I am obsessive about washing my hands (to the point that they're chapped, cracked, and bleeding), but my students are notorious for bringing all sorts of germs with them to school, and, sick days or no, I just can't afford the time off from work to nurse even a mild case of the flu (and it probably wouldn't stay mild; I am familiar with the premise that stress makes the body susceptible to disease, and my stress levels tend to run high because I'm a perfectionist). So I will continue to get a yearly flu shot (courtesy of the local health department - I can't afford to pay for it, and my insurance won't help), and I encourage all of my colleagues in education to get a flu shot as well, because none of us can really afford to be sick, and we see students sneezing and coughing on each other and us on a daily basis (which is really gross).

My point is that some of us (I imagine nurses and other health professionals) should vaccinate based on our jobs, not just our age and relative health.

P.S. If anyone has research proving me wrong, I'm always happy to consider new data. Votes: +3

I do the best I can to keep my classroom furniture wiped down with Clorox wipes, and I am obsessive about washing my hands (to the point that they're chapped, cracked, and bleeding), but my students are notorious for bringing all sorts of germs with them to school, and, sick days or no, I just can't afford the time off from work to nurse even a mild case of the flu (and it probably wouldn't stay mild; I am familiar with the premise that stress makes the body susceptible to disease, and my stress levels tend to run high because I'm a perfectionist).

You're not doing your students or yourself any favors by showing up with open wounds. Did you turn off the stove before you left the kitchen today? Lock the door? Are you sure? How many times did you check? More than once? Votes: -1

It's hard to believe in both. And there's enough woo-like stuff in physics to accommodate even the flakiest new-ager. As always, truth is stranger than fiction. Votes: +2

Yes, I agree that not everybody in the world might need certain vaccinations, but I need all that I can possibly get.

Both my half-sister and I have severe auto-immune issues. Our specialist thinks that perhaps we share a mutated gene. Even normal flu makes us very sick (my sister has been hospitalized for it in the past), so when the Swine Flu vaccine became available, we jumped on it. We had our entire families vaccinated.

I myself have been in a battle for about a year now with my insurance company to be given the Shingles vaccine. The protocol for it is that it is only given to individuals above the age of 55. I am 36 but have had it four times within the past five years, due to my auto-immune condition. I could buy this expensive vaccine on my own, but finding a Doc willing to give me the injection is a whole other matter. Votes: +0